Water changes

[Ram419]

I don't see how, as nitrate is a product of nitrification so there needs to be an ammonia source, then nitrite, then nitrate. Or organics, which is probably the same process.

Nitrate is commonly from agricultural runoff, when rain washes organics into the water supply whatever it may be. And it can vary with the weather and season. So nitrates may fluctuate. Testing the source water at the start of every water change might be advisable. At least you would know what was going in to the water. If you are on municipal water the authority should give the nitrate range, though that may or may not tell you much more.

Ok, so just tested for ammonia in my tap and it has 1.0ppm. That is with and without a water conditioner applied.
I just read that chloramine is ammonia, and my tap water is treated with chloramine. So the ammonia is being converted to nitrates in my container I guess. So I shouldn't keep my excess water in a container right? Or is my water conditioner not working or my ammonia test off b/c the source has chloramine and not chlorine?

 

[Byron]

Ok, so just tested for ammonia in my tap and it has 1.0ppm. That is with and without a water conditioner applied.
I just read that chloramine is ammonia, and my tap water is treated with chloramine. So the ammonia is being converted to nitrates in my container I guess. So I shouldn't keep my excess water in a container right? Or is my water conditioner not working or my ammonia test off b/c the source has chloramine and not chlorine?

Yes, chloramine is ammonia and chlorine, and conditioners separate the ammonia and chlorine but the ammonia remains. In most established tanks, the nitrifying bacteria and/or live plants quickly deal with this ammonia.

As for a container of just tap water developing nitrates from the ammonia in the water...I don't know. Someone like @TwoTankAmin can answer this better (much) than I can.

 

[Ram419]

Yes, chloramine is ammonia and chlorine, and conditioners separate the ammonia and chlorine but the ammonia remains. In most established tanks, the nitrifying bacteria and/or live plants quickly deal with this ammonia.

As for a container of just tap water developing nitrates from the ammonia in the water...I don't know. Someone like @TwoTankAmin can answer this better (much) than I can.

Thanks, I got a container full of treated tap water. Tests show ammonia but not nitrates atm. I'll test it in a few days and see what we get.

 

[Ram419]

@Byron So here are the test results of the container water from 2 days ago and the tap water from today. So the very high nitrates I saw in my container water the other day must have had longer to build up and also perhaps had more ammonia as well?

Is my understanding correct, that chloramine treated water is safe for human consumption (up to 4ppm), as it neutralizes the ammonia and after adding water condiitioner it breaks the chloramine and ammonia apart leaving only the ammonia?

If that is the case, then there's chances that my water supply sometimes has higher ammonia in it then usual (after the chloramine is removed) therefore I have higher nitrates in conditioned water that has been sitting for a few days.

Container on 9/27/23

Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 5ppm


Tap on 9/29/23

Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

 

[Alex Kadyshevich]

You've made a mistake in your first sentence, I'll fix it for you, it should read....

"There's a very useless ap online called AQ Advisor."There, that's better.

The best bit of advice you'll ever receive on this forum is, TAKE NO NOTICE WHATSOEVER OF ANYONE WHO TRIES TO TELL YOU HOW MUCH WATER, AND HOW OFTEN, YOU NEED TO CHANGE ON WATER CHANGE DAY. How the hell can they possibly know your system!!!

Only you can decide, by means of getting to grips with your parameters.

 

[Alex Kadyshevich]

Well mate, with AQ advisor, you tell them the exact dimensions of your tank, and the inhabitants.
Not sure what else they need to know?
An independant advisor I brought in dome time ago agreed the level of water change and advised once a month would do. I do it every week religiously, 6 buckets out, and 6 buckets back in.
Oh and my fish all look healthy and ( as far as I"m any judge) .
My plants likewise. As our US cousins say, if it aint broke, don't fix it

 

[Alex Kadyshevich]

They also take into account your filter...says my power canister filter way ott for size of tank.

 

[Sanityassassin]

Well mate, with AQ advisor, you tell them the exact dimensions of your tank, and the inhabitants.
Not sure what else they need to know?

Maybe I'm being a little unfair, or maybe not. Personally I'm just not happy asking other people what my water change regime should be on my own tank!

In fact, putting that very question to an outside entity and supplying them with a couple of pertinent details to help them make that decision for me would make me look stupid to be honest, and downright lazy.

Tank size is important yes, but more so, overall water volume would be a better indicator (you may be running a sump which increases overall volume quite a bit). And yes, of course, inhabitants. Is that it?

Stick these important figures in a magic water change calculator and bingo, you have your new water change schedule. Theoretically it all sounds so easy doesn't it?

But things change, tanks evolve. Fish may die, new fish may be added, and very important....fish grow! You may have plants soaking up ammonia for fun, lots of them, or maybe just a few, or maybe none at all.

These ongoing factors, in a forever evolving aquarium make a complete mockery of a one size fits all calculation, imo.

That's why I say outside influences on your very own personal water change schedule should simply be taken with a pinch of salt. It's way better practise to test your water yourself and get to grips with the weekly changes that are occuring in your tank. And then make your own decision as to what your water change schedule should be.

Once you've established what your water change schedule should be, great, but don't just rest on your laurels, as I said tanks evolve. Your water change schedule now may need tweaking again in a couple of months.

Trust me, a water testing kit is far far more important to you than an online ap.

 

[Byron]

@Byron So here are the test results of the container water from 2 days ago and the tap water from today. So the very high nitrates I saw in my container water the other day must have had longer to build up and also perhaps had more ammonia as well?

Is my understanding correct, that chloramine treated water is safe for human consumption (up to 4ppm), as it neutralizes the ammonia and after adding water condiitioner it breaks the chloramine and ammonia apart leaving only the ammonia?

If that is the case, then there's chances that my water supply sometimes has higher ammonia in it then usual (after the chloramine is removed) therefore I have higher nitrates in conditioned water that has been sitting for a few days.

Container on 9/27/23

Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 5ppm


Tap on 9/29/23

Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm

I am tagging @TwoTankAmin as he will be able to better answer this issue.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Looking at the numbers from 9/27 and 9/29 I can say there is information missing.

Why is the ammonia unchanged at 1 ppm and why did the 9/27 readings show nitrite and nitrate and then it is gon but the ammonia is not.

But there are ways to get a handle on what is going on, but it requires one have a decent understanding of the processes involved.

My problem at this time is I am way behind on tank maint. due to my spending the last 10 days preparing for doing and then putting things back in their places for a weekend fish event where I was a vendor. I have buyers flying in to pick up fish Wednesday and I need ti have fish pulled and ready. So I am going to have to punt on this for a bit.

I will say one thing here. I have never heard of anybody harming their fish because their water was to clean. Now this does not mean pure, it means proper parameters for the fish and following generally good fish keeping practices. On the other hand, doing to few/too little water changing can be harmful. So if one is going to err, it is better to change too much rather than too little.

 

[Ram419]

@TwoTankAmin Here's a synopsis of the whole thing. The reason for the testing was I found water that that had over 40ppm nitrates in it. This was water I saved in a container becuase it wasn't used in the last water changes that were done.

9/27 Treated tap water with Ammonia 1ppm put in container for 2 days
9/29 Treated tap water from 9/27 that is in the container now reads Ammonia 1ppm | Nitrite 0.25 ppm | Nitrate 5ppm

Also took reading of tap water on 9/29/23, just to see if there were anything different then what I saw on 9/27. And there wasn't, but a couple days before this there was a reading of nitrates in the tap.

I think I've come to the conclusion that if I put my conditioned tap water in a container it will build up nitrates that might not be the best, since if I go straight from tap to tank the ammonia goes in but gets taken up by the plants mostly. Hence the reason I really need plants, b/c my tap has 1ppm ammonia in it. I'll also be testing my tap water before using it at all going forward I think.

 

[Naughts]

Is it possible to put floating plants in the container so that they can use the ammonia?

 

[Ram419]

@Naughts That is a good idea, I'm might just try that.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you are on a municipal water supply seeing some nitrates and even some ammonia is not impossible. There are two ways this can happen.

In most cases the responsibility for the ater supply end at the property line from there the pluming is private. In an apartment building, this means all the plumbing in the building. Between the water source arriving at the municipal distribution system and when it gets to the property line, there may be some level of nitrification happening. If the system uses chloraminesm this can result in some level of ammonia and that may result in some level of nitrate. The supply system tries to prevnt this but is not always completely successful.

Next, private plumbing there are place there water flow is possible but may not be used very often. A basement utility sink and/or bathroom. An unoccupied apartment in a multuifamily setting. A guest bathroom rarely used. There are any nnumber of such placed where there may be nitrifying bacteria. And the result is similar to what was explained above.

So at the same time you may get desired bacteria and a low level of unwanted ammonia and/or nitrate. But, I assume the if you put the tap water into the tank you are using dechlor. And this can sometimes cause false readings. What is importand is if you get an ammonia reading in the tank after you do a d3cent size water change, say around 50%. If so does it persist beyond 24 hours?

I am guessing you don't actually have any issues in the tank itself only in the holding container?

Here is the thing to consider in your container "experiment?" The bacteria are referred to as ammonia oxidizing, this means they need oxygen to process ammonia and then nitrite. They also need inorganic carbon and a bit of iron. KH in a tank is normally from carbonates and bicarbonates which are forms of inorganic carbon. Just having ammonia in water sit in a container without surface aggitation will likely not result in much happening. And your numbers indicate that is what occured.

Unless you have a problem in your tanks. I see no problem here?

 

[Ram419]

@TwoTankAmin Yes, there is a high nitrate problem in one of my tanks. That was the whole reason for delving into this discusion, to try and figure out why that was happening.
I have 6 other tanks that don't have this problem. It is my belief that the nitrates got so high in the one tank due to me using the container water to perform extra changes in the middle of the week. I'm using the same faucet to get the source water for all the tanks, which is from a garden hose outside and this is on a private home in a residential suburban neighborhood.

I've typically seen the ammonia after a water change go away within a day. When I first started the hobby I noticed ammonia during water changes but wasn't sure why it was occuring. I always figured it was due to stirring up the water or substrate in the tank. But, I hadn't tested my source water then so I had no idea it was coming from it. I did have a higher nitrates reading on all tanks when I first started the hobby as well, I think mainly this occured because I had no real plants. After adding more live plants I saw great decreases in the amount of nitrate build up over time.

Since I've started doing water changes with fresh water, not from the container, the nitrates have been lower overall and haven't gotten as high as they had been.

The water test numbers indicate that the ammonia left in the container over a couple days started doing a cycle. There's still ammonia, some nitrite, and some nitrate. I assume if I had let the water site longer the ammnia and nitrite would eventually go away leaving just nitrates.