Urgent: Very Ill Koi :(

[nathan01]

Hi,

I posted a thread about 8 months ago on here with relation to the same fish that is ill again. The fish's history is that he had fin rot, of which he recovered after around 3 weeks.

However, the fish now has another illness or similar.

Around 6 days ago we noticed a swelling on his tail (images attached) and it didn't seem to be getting better. Just an hour ago we decided to remove it from the pond to take a closer look. Now because it was moving very slowly across the bottom of the pond (or just laying there) we didn't expect it to struggle as much as it did when we removed it from the pond. Unfortunately, it jumped from the net and landed on the grass (around 1M fall), then it 'soughed up' blood. (very frightening!)

We then put it back in the pond and it discharged coagulated blood from it's gills, then some sort of murky discharge. (again very frightening to see) He didn't swim for a minute or so but eventually started to move it's tail as we lowered it into the pond, after which it sank and was basically floating around the pond.

We have now removed it and kept it in a separate holding tank, but we fear it hasn't got man hours left, plus he's breathing very slowly. (though his gills are opening and closing and it's opening it's mouth). Also, there is no oxygen feed in the holding tank... We're not sure wether to put it bank incase the disease (if it is) can spread

IWe'd appreciate any advice on this, but not sure what the picture can tell. We are also going to contact the supplier we got it from, but we don't want to take it in as it's a 30 minute trip.

Thank you very much.

Images

 

[fluttermoth]

First of all, it's not oxygen in the holding tank you need to be worrying about; it's a build up of ammonia if there's no filtration in there, so you'll need to be monitoring the water for that and doing water changes as neccessary to keep it from building up. If you can rig up some sort of filter with the media from your main pond filter, that would help.

I'm not sure what's rong with the fish. I think I'd be inclined to try it on a course of anti-internal bacterial medicine that you can get from your LFS, but I think there might not be much you can do for it tbh

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

The scales problem is a bacterial infection, you need to use a strong anti bacterial fish medication for this. This sort of infection is generally not that infectious (tends to start off infecting specific fish for specific reasons) so the fish would be better being kept in the pond where the water has an established pond filter than being kept in a small uncycled holding tank. I would also advise treating the pond as a whole to help reduce background levels of the disease in general.

As to the cause of the infection, could be a number of things. Sometimes these things just happen too- this Koi could also just have a poor immune system resulting from inbreeding. A few questions;

a. What are the measurements/gallons/liters of the pond?
b. How many Koi are in the pond and what is their general size range?
c. How strongly filtered is the pond?
d. What do you feed the fish and how often/much?
e. What sort of maintanence do you perform on the pond (water top-ups, water changes, cleaning filtration, cleaning bottom of pond etc) and how do you go about it in detail?


(Bacterial infections can sometimes be environmental in cause and so its important to check all aspects of the fishes environment etc). Have you tested the ponds water for ammonia, nitrites & nitrates?

 

[nathan01]

The scales problem is a bacterial infection, you need to use a strong anti bacterial fish medication for this. This sort of infection is generally not that infectious (tends to start off infecting specific fish for specific reasons) so the fish would be better being kept in the pond where the water has an established pond filter than being kept in a small uncycled holding tank. I would also advise treating the pond as a whole to help reduce background levels of the disease in general.

As to the cause of the infection, could be a number of things. Sometimes these things just happen too- this Koi could also just have a poor immune system resulting from inbreeding. A few questions;

a. What are the measurements/gallons/liters of the pond?
b. How many Koi are in the pond and what is their general size range?
c. How strongly filtered is the pond?
d. What do you feed the fish and how often/much?
e. What sort of maintanence do you perform on the pond (water top-ups, water changes, cleaning filtration, cleaning bottom of pond etc) and how do you go about it in detail?


(Bacterial infections can sometimes be environmental in cause and so its important to check all aspects of the fishes environment etc). Have you tested the ponds water for ammonia, nitrites & nitrates?

A) 3030 Gallons (UK)
B) 19 Koi. between 6" and 28" inches (2 fish are 28" and the rest average between 6" and 15". We also have a 40" Sturgeon
C) We have a Nexus 200, with a 50 air-pumping filter and 100 directly in the pond.
D) We feed them Koyoshi Wheatgerm with added Garlic , 4 times a day.
E) Filter is cleaned on a daily basis. Top-up every day. No main water changes for a while (but filter is cleaned everyday regardless) There are one or two leaves a day. We net the surface of the pond daily aswell.

We feed the fish all year as it's a heated in the winter time.

We visited out LFS along with the photos, and they told us that the fish is basically beyond help, and the bacterial infection is too advanced. They said we can try to treat it but it would be better to put it down (put sedative in water and don't remove the fish). We where reluctant to do this because when we returned home and noticed that the fish was swimming more and wasn't sat at the bottom all the time. (Also, all the other fish are swimming around it, if this "fish nature"?)

The fish is currently in a holding tank with a oxygen supply (no filtration but with 50L of air)

We purchased a complete test which includes PH, Ammonia and Nitrite (NH3/NH4+) (tetra pond)

The results from the test are:

PH: 7.5 (Fine)
Nitrite: approx. 0.5 (between 0.3 and o.8mg/L)
Ammonia: 1.5 (LETHAL) It should be 0mg/L, even 0.25mg/L is lethal which is the 2nd coloured box (first one being 0mg/L)

The fish are not distressed, all the food is eaten within 2-3 minutes. We've recently had an mild outbreak of blanket weed, of which has now cleared. (Kusuri blanket week eradicator)

So we are either: (read from the booklet)
Have an overstocked pond
Overfeeding
Filter is not functioning correctly
Excess organic debris

It's suggested we can do a 30% water change and add more air.

We will perform a 30% water change tomorrow but the air is 150L which is ok? We will also be adding Kursuri Acriflavine 1% for the bacteria (suggested from our LFS)

Thank you for any other suggestions. We will monitor the water closely as we haven't being doing so lately.

PS. Is it essential to do both nitrite and nitrate? We have done nitrite and it's fine.

 

[coldcazzie]

The results from the test are:

PH: 7.5 (Fine)
Nitrite: approx. 0.5 (between 0.3 and o.8mg/L)
Ammonia: 1.5 (LETHAL) It should be 0mg/L, even 0.25mg/L is lethal which is the 2nd coloured box (first one being 0mg/L)

The fish are not distressed, all the food is eaten within 2-3 minutes. We've recently had an mild outbreak of blanket weed, of which has now cleared. (Kusuri blanket week eradicator)

So we are either: (read from the booklet)
Have an overstocked pond
Overfeeding
Filter is not functioning correctly
Excess organic debris

It's suggested we can do a 30% water change and add more air.

We will perform a 30% water change tomorrow but the air is 150L which is ok? We will also be adding Kursuri Acriflavine 1% for the bacteria (suggested from our LFS)

Thank you for any other suggestions. We will monitor the water closely as we haven't being doing so lately.

PS. Is it essential to do both nitrite and nitrate? We have done nitrite and it's fine.

1. Nitrite is not fine. Both ammonia and nitrite should be 0 in a system with a functioning cycled filter. Nitrate is less important.

2. 30% will do nothing. Removing 30% of the water means you remove 30% of the ammonia and nitrite. Meaning you will still have levels of 1.05ppm ammonia and 0.35ppm nitrite. Clearly those two readings are not 0, they are not even below 0.25ppm, meaning that the water change is insufficient. You need to do a 90% change. Minimum. Maybe even 2, straight one after the other - it would depend on your ammonia reading after a single 90% change.

Whether or not you are overstocked I wouldn't be able to tell you. It is possible your filtration is insufficient, again, I wouldn't know for sure. I'm sure someone else will be able to say.

Not sure whether 4 daily feedings are necessary...seems excessive to me.

Also, if you're not cleaning the bottom of the pond and removing all the decomposing poo/uneaten food/dead plants/etc down there, then that will be a large cause of your ammonia.

If it were a tank the advice would be cut back your feedings to once every 2-3 days, do a huge deep clean, and large daily water changes to keep ammonia/nitrite below 0.25ppm. I realise with a 3000+G pond, large water changes are at best incredibly difficult and time consuming, but I don't see why the other things can't apply?

 

[Davehutton92]

The scales problem is a bacterial infection, you need to use a strong anti bacterial fish medication for this. This sort of infection is generally not that infectious (tends to start off infecting specific fish for specific reasons) so the fish would be better being kept in the pond where the water has an established pond filter than being kept in a small uncycled holding tank. I would also advise treating the pond as a whole to help reduce background levels of the disease in general.

As to the cause of the infection, could be a number of things. Sometimes these things just happen too- this Koi could also just have a poor immune system resulting from inbreeding. A few questions;

a. What are the measurements/gallons/liters of the pond?
b. How many Koi are in the pond and what is their general size range?
c. How strongly filtered is the pond?
d. What do you feed the fish and how often/much?
e. What sort of maintanence do you perform on the pond (water top-ups, water changes, cleaning filtration, cleaning bottom of pond etc) and how do you go about it in detail?


(Bacterial infections can sometimes be environmental in cause and so its important to check all aspects of the fishes environment etc). Have you tested the ponds water for ammonia, nitrites & nitrates?

A) 3030 Gallons (UK)
B) 19 Koi. between 6" and 28" inches (2 fish are 28" and the rest average between 6" and 15". We also have a 40" Sturgeon
C) We have a Nexus 200, with a 50 air-pumping filter and 100 directly in the pond.
D) We feed them Koyoshi Wheatgerm with added Garlic , 4 times a day.
E) Filter is cleaned on a daily basis. Top-up every day. No main water changes for a while (but filter is cleaned everyday regardless) There are one or two leaves a day. We net the surface of the pond daily aswell.

We feed the fish all year as it's a heated in the winter time.

We visited out LFS along with the photos, and they told us that the fish is basically beyond help, and the bacterial infection is too advanced. They said we can try to treat it but it would be better to put it down (put sedative in water and don't remove the fish). We where reluctant to do this because when we returned home and noticed that the fish was swimming more and wasn't sat at the bottom all the time. (Also, all the other fish are swimming around it, if this "fish nature"?)

The fish is currently in a holding tank with a oxygen supply (no filtration but with 50L of air)

We purchased a complete test which includes PH, Ammonia and Nitrite (NH3/NH4+) (tetra pond)

The results from the test are:

PH: 7.5 (Fine)
Nitrite: approx. 0.5 (between 0.3 and o.8mg/L)
Ammonia: 1.5 (LETHAL) It should be 0mg/L, even 0.25mg/L is lethal which is the 2nd coloured box (first one being 0mg/L)

The fish are not distressed, all the food is eaten within 2-3 minutes. We've recently had an mild outbreak of blanket weed, of which has now cleared. (Kusuri blanket week eradicator)

So we are either: (read from the booklet)
Have an overstocked pond
Overfeeding
Filter is not functioning correctly
Excess organic debris

It's suggested we can do a 30% water change and add more air.

We will perform a 30% water change tomorrow but the air is 150L which is ok? We will also be adding Kursuri Acriflavine 1% for the bacteria (suggested from our LFS)

Thank you for any other suggestions. We will monitor the water closely as we haven't being doing so lately.

PS. Is it essential to do both nitrite and nitrate? We have done nitrite and it's fine.

personally i would say your feeding them far too much 4 feeds a day is a awful lot, how much are you feeding them at each time?

it doesnt seem overstocked the pond my dad has in the garden is around 5,000gallons and he has around 45 fish ranging from 12-30 inches most of them are around 20. we use the nexus 200 filter along with our own made filter so i would say your stocking is fine.

 

[Jenste]

I am also going to chime in that 4 times a day is excessive - -

Also, koi need different amounts of food during different seasons - - weather effects environmental conditions which greatly effects their metabolism.

Fall/spring I would say once a day should be fine, food gone in under 3-5 minutes MAX.
Summer, two small feedings which would combined equal about 1.5X the single feeding in Fall/Spring.
Winter...you say "heated" - to what temp? is it consistent? does ANY ice layer form?
Until those questions are answered I would state that feeding needs to be cut back to once a week or so during winter - cold weather will severely slow their metabolism.

Also, you state you clean your filter daily - - can you describe how you clean the filter?