Unsure?!?!

[Ajbolton]

I am new to the hobby of fish keeping and have had my tank working for 4 weeks. I've done a large amount of research on the internet and from books and decided not to do a fishless cycle but instead I added two zebra danios after a week and a week later I added another to try and prevent/lessen the bullying that the slightly larger fish was dishing out. (All the levels were still between 0-1 so I thought it would be ok.) Now all the fish seem to be rather healthy and the bullying has lessened.

Ok the first problem I have is to do with toxin levels. I have been testing Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates at least every other day (Mostly every day) for the four weeks.

Since I had the tank running (even without fish) I've had an ammonia reading of 1. At the end of the 3rd week (I hadn't tested the previous day) the results went from Ammonia 1, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0 to Ammonia 0, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 10 and thought this was rather a fast incline. Now at the end of week 4 (I havn't done a waterchange yet on the advise of a fishkeeping friend) My results are Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5. I was wondering why the nitrate level was lower than previously when I have no real plants only arteficial ones and whether these results mean that my cycle has finished and it is safe to add more fish?

Secondly I was wondering what scavangers/algae eaters to get for my tank. It is a 70L/16 UK gallon/19 US gallon tank. I have been researching shrimps - preferably ghost shrimp as they would tidy my tank and produce little waste? but is this a good decision or not. I've been told snails aren't a particularly good option for the fat the produce large amounts of waste and are therefore more of a problem. Are sucking loaches any good if I gave them to my freind (who has a 100 Gallon tank) when they grow too large (And how long would this be?). I doubt my tank would have too much algae as it is in a dark place and the lighting is not on long because of the fact there are no real plants.

Next, I am going to buy 3 more zebra danios (maybe tomorrow) so in total I have 6. Then I am going to buy 6 more of a different shoaling fish and was wondering which to get. I like the idea of harlequin rasboras and would like to know how easy these are to look after. Any other suggestions of small fish, max length 2", would be appreciated.

Finally, say I had 6 Zebra Danio, 6 Harlequin Rasboras and 3 ghost shrimp, would the tank be over/understocked and if so by how much?

Thanks for all your help in advance
Adam

 

[jennybugs]

I wouldn't add any more fish until your tank has cycled.

Ideally with a fishy cycle I would change 10% of the water every day or every other day to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrite diluted. These are harmful to your fish.

What test kit do you have? Is it a liquid one or a strip version? The liquid test kits are more accurate

With regard to algae eaters, you can go for otocinlcus once your tank has cycled and matured a bit. They are very good algae eaters and also appreciate a slice of cucumber on occasion.

I have otos, amano shrimp and apple snails in my tanks and they all do a good job at keeping the tanks relatively clean. Although algae isn't nice to look at, it can be a sign of a healthy tank and you don't want to clean it all away too rigourously imho.

Once cycled your tank must be stocked slowly over a couple of months. Harlequin rasboras are lovely fish as are their relatives glowlight rasboras. They are a small peaceful fish. Danios are nice and lively and will mix well with things like other danios, most tetra (these are a favourite of mine) - just be aware that some tetra are fin nippers - dwarf neon rainbowfish are stunning too

Hope this helps a bit. I'll stop rattling on now

 

[Ajbolton]

I wouldn't add any more fish until your tank has cycled.

Ideally with a fishy cycle I would change 10% of the water every day or every other day to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrite diluted. These are harmful to your fish.

What test kit do you have? Is it a liquid one or a strip version? The liquid test kits are more accurate

With regard to algae eaters, you can go for otocinlcus once your tank has cycled and matured a bit. They are very good algae eaters and also appreciate a slice of cucumber on occasion.

I have otos, amano shrimp and apple snails in my tanks and they all do a good job at keeping the tanks relatively clean. Although algae isn't nice to look at, it can be a sign of a healthy tank and you don't want to clean it all away too rigourously imho.

Once cycled your tank must be stocked slowly over a couple of months. Harlequin rasboras are lovely fish as are their relatives glowlight rasboras. They are a small peaceful fish. Danios are nice and lively and will mix well with things like other danios, most tetra (these are a favourite of mine) - just be aware that some tetra are fin nippers - dwarf neon rainbowfish are stunning too

Hope this helps a bit. I'll stop rattling on now

Thanks for the advice

I understand about the cycling of the tank, the toxins and when to add more fish but I am unsure as to whether my tank has cycled or not. I was planning on doing daily water changes once my ammonia and nitrate levels got high but after 2 weeks of nothing happening, my ammonia and nitrite rose and dropped again in about 4 days and now I have 0ppm of either and 5ppm nitrate. I am using a liquid test.

At the moment I have no algae and wouldn't think I'll get an awful lot considering the lighting.

Originally I planned on getting a few neon tetras but have read about how these are being overbred due to high demand and therefore and a particularly hardy or good quality fish anymore. Is this true?

 

[jennybugs]

Neon tetra are generally delicate fish. I'm not sure if they're being overbred at the moment, but they won't like goiing in a new or uncycled tank.

I wouldn't add any more fish for a while yet...just to make sure your tank has cycled. If it continues to read 0 on ammonia and nitrite after another week, then it would appear you've cycled.

I'd do a water change now and then see what your readings are once it's settled again.

 

[ibbledibble]

i'd also like to add something

if your tank has cycled (i agree with jennybugs, give it a week to make sure) dont add lots of fish at once

think about it, the bacteria has grown to the point where it can deal with the waste created by 3 fish. it will not increase in number until there is more waste to feed it, but if you add another 3 fish at once the bacteria thats already established will not be able to deal with all the extra waste produced and your tank would need to re-cycle with the added bioload. thats one of the reasons why fishless cycling is a good idea, you create an artificially high bioload so a large bacteria colony builds up. then you can add all your fish in one go.
i would add the next few fish 1 at a time. when you have 6 danios, then maybe add 3 rasboras then the remaining 3 and allow about a week between each addition to ensure the bacteria build up is sufficient.

out of curiosity, why did you decide not to do a fishless cycle? the only benefit i can see to a fish in cycle is that you get to have fish straight away, and that seems like a poor trade off with not poisoning your fish and having an fully stocked tank sooner.
i did fish in cycles when i first started fishkeeping, out of ignorance, but i'd never do it now i know better.

not trying to lecture you or anything, just interested in the logic behind your decision.

 

[Ajbolton]

i'd also like to add something

if your tank has cycled (i agree with jennybugs, give it a week to make sure) dont add lots of fish at once

think about it, the bacteria has grown to the point where it can deal with the waste created by 3 fish. it will not increase in number until there is more waste to feed it, but if you add another 3 fish at once the bacteria thats already established will not be able to deal with all the extra waste produced and your tank would need to re-cycle with the added bioload. thats one of the reasons why fishless cycling is a good idea, you create an artificially high bioload so a large bacteria colony builds up. then you can add all your fish in one go.
i would add the next few fish 1 at a time. when you have 6 danios, then maybe add 3 rasboras then the remaining 3 and allow about a week between each addition to ensure the bacteria build up is sufficient.

out of curiosity, why did you decide not to do a fishless cycle? the only benefit i can see to a fish in cycle is that you get to have fish straight away, and that seems like a poor trade off with not poisoning your fish and having an fully stocked tank sooner.
i did fish in cycles when i first started fishkeeping, out of ignorance, but i'd never do it now i know better.

not trying to lecture you or anything, just interested in the logic behind your decision.

Well the only reason that I didn't do a fishless cycle was the fact I wasn't completely certain what I was meant to be doing. I'd researched it as much as I could but still didn't know enough. I'd looked into using a shrimp or feeding the tank without fish but for both techniques many say its inaccurate and messy. Then there was pure ammonia. Not only do none of the fish stores nearby stock it, I was worried about adding too much or too little as I heard this could ruin the whole cycle. So really I used fish just for ease, as I was a newcomer to fishkeeping. If I get a new tank then I would do a fishless cycle as I'd know a bit more what I'm doing. And I must admit I was probably further inclined just so I could have some fish in the tank and I know this isn't fair on the fish but too be fair I had researched a lot and didn't just go out and buy all my fish, place them in a tank and wonder why they were all dead the next day. Thankfully my levels never grew too high and my fish never showed any major signs of poisoning!

 

[mark.w.jones]

Having any ammonia levels in your tank at all will ultimately damage your fish especially when as high as 1ppm. However, that's what you will have to deal with whilst you are cycling with fish. Just keep up the daily water changes of around 15% every time you add your next small group of fish and that will be as good as you can do. Keep checking ammonia and nitrite levels on a daily basis, preferably before you do you daily water change to see how high you levels are getting. Test ammonia and nitrite again afterwards to see if a 15% water change brings the levels down to 0ppm. If not you will need to be doing bigger water changes.

Unsure as to why you disregarded a fishless cycle with ammonia soltution. If you had done one instead of adding your danios it would have finished about now and you could have fully stocked your tank.

Shrimp would be fine in that tank as scavengers. Amano, ghost and red cherry shrimp are all good options for a small tank. However, consider getting them last as they really need a mature substrate to live off of. A new substrate such as yours will have very little for them to scavenge. Algae wafers as used for catfish are good substitute foods.

That stocking: 6 Z danios, 6 Harlequins is about perfect for your tank and would just about fully stock it with a maybe 5 shrimp. I would be tempted to go for:

5 Zebra Danios
5 Harlequin (Or another small species which doesnt exceed 1.5")
4 Pygmaeus Cories

In this thread I suggested some other species suitable for a small tank. Take care if you choose a livebearer like the endlers though. As unless you stock a single sex you will soon be over run with fry

http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...-Expert-Advice/

 

[CFC]

Not everyone is an advocate of the fishless cycle. There are many factors to go wrong which can stall the cycle and unless done exactly to the letter the process can take weeks before the tank settles, many people just dont have the time to be constantly testing the parameters and adding ammonia to the tank each day and when a hobby is a chore there is more likelyhood of them giving up before they even started properly.

I have always recomended that people cycle their tanks with a couple of zebra danios and when asked i always will do, i just dont push it on here because the accepted method is the fishless cycle and i cant be bothered to get into arguments over the ethics of exposing two small fish to elevated ammonia and nitrite levels.

 

[Ajbolton]

CFC thaks or that response. That was another aspect that I forgot. I don't have as much time as many people as I'm still at school doing mocks and soon revising for my GCSE's so I thought just letting a couple of danios do the hard work for me would help.

And Jonesy if you'd read my first post properly you would know that my tank has already cycled so your advice of "If you'd done a fishless cycle it would be complete by now" doesn't really make me wish I'd done a fishless one and also the reasons why I didn't use ammonia. But thanks for the help especially about stocking levels.

Anyway, this thread was never meant to cause a war between fish and fishless cycles so lets stay back on topic.

thanks to all who've helped