Two filters. I'm going to deversify!

[663]

I've used chemical removing mats like charcoal or Renew until resently after hearing that they aren't always needed. I'm thinking of devoting one tray in the smaller of the 2 filters with a chemical removing mat. I'm going to keep the rest of the trays (3) with hard BIO and sponge mats for now. I have some Purigen on the way. Is there another chemical mat that I should consider?

My logic is that since the smaller unit has decreased flow compared to my workhorse, is that my collective filtration won't over-remove things from my water. Which I think is the reason for not using these mats all the time.

 

[DAnCSF]

I was in the same conundrum, I used disposable filter cartridges for a long time. But then decide to go bio ball/rings. what changed my mind was that I have plants. Activated charcoal will remove nutrients that plant could use. Depending on your tanks I don't think it can hurt, why not just give it a try. The great thing about filters is that we can be creative about the filter media and don't need to "buy" the disposable cartridges. I have a rather large HOB and using a replaceable media cartridges with small bioballs/rings, but thinking about replacing one side with a sponge and filter floss. The main drawback that I see is for that side I'm starting over and having to re establish the bacteria on that side.

 

[Essjay]

Is there anything which needs to be removed from the water eg nitrate or phosphate? If there isn't, you don't need a chemical filter.

 

[AbbeysDad]

The trouble with commercial bio-medias and chemical filtration is that they have a use life and must be $replaced$. Now I don't wanna sound like the cheap old fishgeezer, but maybe there's a better way...
> Plants, especially fast growing floating plants, convert pollution into plant tissue we eventually trim and remove. An investment in plants pays huge dividends over time.
> Food - feed only high quality foods in small amounts for less waste (pollution).
> Bio-filtration - a 3-4" sand (or fine gravel) substrate that's NEVER disturbed.
> Mechanical filtration - I used to buy into the marketing hype for commercial bio-medias...but these days, sponge material is all you'll find in ALL of my filters. It's great at mechanical filtration, excels as a platform for beneficial bacteria, cleans easily, and lasts forever and a day! And although it seems to be popular, don't over filter! (see The Dirty Truth About Filters).
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Now having written the above, Intrigued by deep sand, live rock, and refugiums in salt water aquariums, in the 40g sump for my 110g stock tank I am experimenting with anoxic biocenosis clarification baskets based on the research of Dr. Kevin Novak, pHD. (a search for the ultimate bio-filtration)

 

[663]

I was in the same conundrum, I used disposable filter cartridges for a long time. But then decide to go bio ball/rings. what changed my mind was that I have plants. Activated charcoal will remove nutrients that plant could use. Depending on your tanks I don't think it can hurt, why not just give it a try. The great thing about filters is that we can be creative about the filter media and don't need to "buy" the disposable cartridges. I have a rather large HOB and using a replaceable media cartridges with small bioballs/rings, but thinking about replacing one side with a sponge and filter floss. The main drawback that I see is for that side I'm starting over and having to re establish the bacteria on that side.

We are indeed in similar circumstances. Am I right to assume that plants consume more than just nitrates in a planted tank? I'm nowhere near a truly planted tank, having only a few moss balls at the moment. One big reason for my considering chemical media in one filter is to remove contaminates at a reduced rate is to avoid some form of backlash after not using mats like Seachem Renew or Matrix Carbon for months. Also, with waterchanges alone I'm approaching legend-level nitrate PPM.

Since my tank now has lifeforms (moss balls) that I have no experience with, I needed some idea that I'm not hurting or impoverishing any thing with my meatball thinking. I'm now into waterchanges and testing like I should have been the entire time . In regards to your situation, I'd very much like to know the make and model of your HOB, and the number and type of fish that you own. One of the cool aspects of this place is that I get to live vicariously through you guys. ?

 

[Essjay]

Am I right to assume that plants consume more than just nitrates in a planted tank?

I'll leave that question to people who know more about the type of plants used in aquariums.

I live in a part of England with a lot of chemical industry. Many years ago they pioneered reseach into the use of reed beds to remove contamination from the effluent from the chemical works before the water was discharged into the river. It proved very successful, so some types of plants can take up things other than nitrate.

 

[663]

Is there anything which needs to be removed from the water eg nitrate or phosphate? If there isn't, you don't need a chemical filter.

Nitrates to remove? Sure, always. I'm feeding as normal + 2 young blood parrot's that suck it down like black hole's. Phosphates unknown, since I don't have a test for those quite yet.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Am I right to assume that plants consume more than just nitrates in a planted tank?

Actually most plants prefer ammonia as their nitrogen source as processing nitrates requires more plant energy. But this is a good thing since plants will use (some/most?) ammonia (like a sponge) BEFORE beneficial bacteria converts to nitrites and nitrates.
But it's the faster growing plants that really work for us as slow growing plants just don't 'eat' that much. Of these plants, floating plants seem to be the best. AND plants consume other nutrients (aka pollution) than just ammonia.
Still, all said and done, like rain in nature, the routine periodic partial water change is our best move in keeping fresh water fresh.

 

[Essjay]

I have quarantined 2 lots of fish in the last year.
The first time, 12 months ago, I took some media from my main tank. The main tank has a lot of slow growing plants but at the time also had water sprite floating on the surface (it's now got Amazon frogbit). I set up the QT then added ammonia to test how many bacteria I'd transferred with the media. Next day, the ammonia reading was exactly the same as when I added the ammonia. So there were virtually no bacteria in the media. It took a 7 week fishless cycle before I could put fish in the QT.
The second time I set it up, I didn't use any mature media. I just used a small filter as a power head to move the water round. I took 2 large water sprite plants from the main tank, and bought 2 bunches of elodea (anacharis) at the same time as the fish. There were 12 kuhli loaches in the 25 litre (6 gallon) QT. I tested for ammonia and nitrite every day and never saw a trace of either. The plants used all the ammonia made by these 12 kuhli loaches.

I am lucky because I have just 4 ppm nitrate in my tap water. That's the figure from my water company's water quality report, my tester shows a bit yellower than the 5 colour. A couple of weeks ago I tested my tank's nitrate just before I started a water change. It showed the zero colour on the test chart so maybe as much as 1 ppm.

There is so much frogbit that it covers the entire surface of both my tanks. As AbbeysDad said, floating plants are ammonia sponges. And once the frogbit had used all the ammonia it had to resort to taking up the tiny bit of nitrate I add with tap water during water changes.

 

[AbbeysDad]

As AbbeysDad said, floating plants are ammonia sponges.

I had a discussion some time ago with my friend Byron. He always starts a new tank with lots of plants and just a few fish and the BB develops over time...and with the plants using much/most/all of the ammonia, the bacteria colony is likely quite small and very little nitrite/nitrates are produced.
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Charles Clapsaddle of Goliad Farms, South Texas, has greenhouses full of fish vats 55g and 300g and HUGE PLANTS. He uses NO Filters and pretty much just tops off water that remains clean and relatively pure.
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Personally, I use water sprite and I find that some tanks require modest ferts to keep the water sprite growing well...while other tanks it seems to grow well without - go figure.

 

[seangee]

There is so much frogbit that it covers the entire surface of both my tanks. As AbbeysDad said, floating plants are ammonia sponges. And once the frogbit had used all the ammonia it had to resort to taking up the tiny bit of nitrate I add with tap water during water changes.

When I set up my 22G I put in some plants, waited till they were growing and added 20 ember tetras. Filter was band new and not cycled. Testing showed that my plants were not dealing with the load so I filled the top with frogbit from another tank. Two weeks later I added 20 chili rasbora and 6 sparkling gourami. As the plants in the tank grew to cope with the load I gradually removed the frogbit.

I have since added more fish (10 pygmy corys and 6 otos). The frogbit is all gone now and I have never seen ammonia, nitrite or nitrates since day 1 when I had to add the frogbit. And that's despite swapping filters several times to get the flow and appearance to my liking. I would not be at all surprised to learn that there is no beneficial bacteria in my filter today. In fact I would be surprised if there was, simply because the plants are taking up all the ammonia the fish can produce and starving the filter.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Hmm, I'll have to give Frogbit another try. But right now, water sprite rules:

 

[seangee]

If its working stick with it. I have a hard time with water sprite. For me frogbit grows just by looking at it.

 

[AbbeysDad]

If its working stick with it. I have a hard time with water sprite. For me frogbit grows just by looking at it.

Interesting fert!

 

[663]

Actually most plants prefer ammonia as their nitrogen source as processing nitrates requires more plant energy. But this is a good thing since plants will use (some/most?) ammonia (like a sponge) BEFORE beneficial bacteria converts to nitrites and nitrates.
But it's the faster growing plants that really work for us as slow growing plants just don't 'eat' that much. Of these plants, floating plants seem to be the best. AND plants consume other nutrients (aka pollution) than just ammonia.
Still, all said and done, like rain in nature, the routine periodic partial water change is our best move in keeping fresh water fresh.

Short take: Those beautiful hardscape tanks sculpted with plants aren't as easy to produce as it seems. After reading this I'm glad that I didn't simply run out and buy the plants that I think look fun. Thanks Dad, you've opened my mind to the complexities of planted tanks. I don't need fancier filter mats. I need an obsession for timely water-changes.