Topfin 20 Filter System

chimera_786

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Hi there!

I have a quick question and this is regarding the filter. When ever i preform a 25% water change, water stops flowing through the filter. Thats understandable as the water level recedes. When i checked my filter, i carefully observed whether or not it is submerged in water as i dont want the bacterial colonies to die off. Would the colonies survive as long as the filter media in my filter is submerged under aquarium water within the filter system? I have a topfin 20 filter and also, could someone recommend another filter system in which i can place my present filter media or is it possible to elongate the pipe that feeds aquarium water to the filter system. All advice is appreciated.

PS: I have a 20 gallon tank.
 
As long as the media is wet your bio filtration will be fine. You can extend the tube, I used to do this with tubing from the hardware store. You can put nearly any media in an Aqua Clear filter, I've done it before, as well as extending the intake. With a deeper intake you can keep an AC running during a 50% water change on a 29 gallon, though it does slow down considerably with the lower water level.
 
So the topfin filter which i have is a Aqua Clear filter system? Okay and wat do use to extend the tubing? Recommend a fish/water safe material for tubing. Also, how do i add another filter media to my exsisting filter system so that i can have two filter media with beneficial bacteria growing on them simultaneiously. The reason why i ask that is because i will be setting up a quarentine tank soon and would like to add the second media from my filter into the new tank. what other filter medias i can add to my exsisting tank?

I know these are a lot of questions but im new to this hobby and want to get my basics down firmly.
 
With things like tubing, media, gravel, crushed coral and other physical stuff in tanks I tend to get them from sources that provide them specifically for aquarium use, unless a member here or some other info leads me to feel sure the material will be safe for aquarium use. Its true you can get ripped off, with excessively high prices for something that's the same thing from a big box or hardware store, but without specific help its probably better to be safe than sorry (although even aquarium sources can be unsafe in rare cases unfortunately.) For instance, an example that springs to mind is the recommendation to go to walmart or a crafts store to buy big bags of "pillow stuffing" polyfloss that is plain and doesn't have fire retardants or other extra chemicals -- this was a recommendation made here to save money.

It could be that AquaClear themselves might have other size siphon tubes, or any of the HOB makers. It would be good to carefully observe whether the end in the filter needs to fit tightly or not. Tolak is so experienced, he might know straight out. I agree with him that its a really convenient feature to have a long intake tube so that the filter can just keep running during even large water changes. Mine can keep running up to about 80% change.

Its also true though that keeping it running is not at all essential. Most beginners are much more worried about bacteria die-off than they need to be. When the flow of food (ammonia) and fresh water stops going through a filter, you still have at least 5 hours and probably more before you'd detect any die-off I'd say, at least the 5-hours being ok is something I've directly experienced. The next stage of worse is if the media is not submerged in tank water, but again, if kept wet it will still do fine for a very long time and indeed that is how people ship mature media to each other. The worst thing is if it dries out, then you get pretty rapid and severe die-off of the colony (although even in this case you can be fooled and the centers of the colony can be still moist and the few cells that haven't died can be a big boost to re-cycling the filter, it just varies with the severity of the dry-out.)

Yes, media is an important topic. In your own case I'd bet pieces of sponge in rough and fine pore sizes would make a great biomedia for your AC/topfin and would give you the flexibility to move pieces for your other needs. Tolak could verify/correct me. Other biomedia to learn about are ceramics, both pebble and ring shaped. The desirable feature of these is that they provide good bacteria clinging surfaces and yet are like stone and will last for years, letting you simply dunk them in tank water to rinse away the excess debris. The ring idea is to randomize the little directions the water takes as it passes through the filter, with the result that the water can't find a "path of least resistance" that would allow it to get by with less filtration. In smaller HOBs, there may not be enough room to build the minimum layer size for an effective ceramic ring bed (not sure thus, about the AC20.)

BTW, for "getting the basics down firmly" with the filter media topic, you should organize your thoughts into three categories: mechanical filtration, chemical filtration and most importantly, biofiltration. The stuff we've discussed functions as both mechanical (debris catching) and biofiltration.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. Question for Tolak et.al. if he happens back: I hadn't ever thought about the filter flow rate slowing down as the tank level recedes, would that be just the siphon effect (ie. less push from the water above the filter intake point?) Interesting.
 
I don't think extending the intake tube is the issue. More than likely the pump in the filter doesn't have enough power to suck water up the intake tube after the water level drops far enough. I have this issue with my tank. The first ten gallons I remove the filter still functions fine, but at progressively diminishing capacity. Somewhere during the last five gallons of my 15 gallon water change the filter will give up the ghost and stop pulling all together. I learned this pretty quick and after the first ten gallons are removed I unplug the filter and don't plug it back in until I refill the tank back high enough.

Of course if the inlet is being uncovered during the water change forget I said anything.

Your bacteria will be fine just so long as the media they are on doesn't dry out. So long as you don't stop and do something else for an hour or two your bacteria will likely be fine during your regular water changes.
 
Oh, you're right, I hadn't thought about that. My eheim seems completely unperturbed in flow rate no matter how low the water level goes and its a tall tank. The noise from water falling from the spraybar just gets louder! Thanks for your insight.

~~waterdrop~~
 
umm..so wait.. i can either add piece of pillow filling stuff (the non fire retardant and antibacterial) to my filter or/and i can add a piece of sponge? What sponge are we talking about and what size? Also, if my filter media is safe when i preform a water change, as long as the media remains submerged under aquarium water, it should be okay then? My water change takes about 5 to 10 mins. But my tank is in the cycling process and have fish in it. *Dont worry, the fish are well for now*. Whats the max water change i can do without damaging the progress made by the tank for cycling. Normally, i do 25% water change and thats lowers the ammonia down.

Thanks!
 
Water changes of any size will not cause a setback to the cycling process. The beneficial bacteria we want are almost entirely attached firmly to surfaces. Because you are cycling *with fish* however, the percentage water changes you perform should be optimized to maintain good water parameters for your fish. If 25% changes on a schedule you've been using are keeping your ammonia below 0.25ppm (as tested with a liquid-reagent based test kit) then you should be good.

Very sorry I went into "lecture" mode this morning, lol, was just trying to start giving you background stuff about filter media, not really meaning to confuse the detailed advice for your current situation. ..might take a bit to separate out which parts were just general background filter info and which parts were specific, and I have to run at the moment, but will try back later, or the other members will keep the commentary rolling no doubt.

You are completely right in your understanding that once you've grown the bacteria in your media (sponges or whatever it happens to be) you want to keep them alive by only cleaning the sponges in tank water. Media can be kept going and going, often for many years if it holds up physically.

Let's see, to attempt a quick answer: If you want to have some mature media to move to a Q-tank, sponge would probably be the better type. Sponge is very flexible in that you can buy ones meant for other filters and cut them into the shapes and sizes for your need. They cut very nicely with scissors. Let's say you managed to add a wide rectangular block of sponge into your existing filter, keeping as much of your existing media that's already been cycling as possible. After a month or so the new block of sponge will be mature with bacteria. The rule about taking mature media away from an established tank is to not take more than 1/3 of the media volume. So you could prepare for your eventual "removal to Q-tank" by making a scissor cut 1/3 of the way down the sponge block. When you pulled out that 1/3 sponge for the Q-tank, you would replace it with a 1/3 piece of new sponge.

OK, gotta run, hope that didn't just make things more confusing! ~~wd~~
 
Sponges are frequently sold at your LFS as replacements for the sponges that come as part of many filter brands. If you can get them to open a box and get a look at the sponge, what you would want is a sponge with an open looking structure to it. The right one for biomedia will look like something useless for cleaning because the structure of it is too open to suck up water like a sponge. Water will run right through it with almost no resistance at all. I recently bought some sponges that were made for an AC 70 filter. It is not for use as a biomedia but by the looks of that sponge it would be a good one. No matter what sponge you settle on, you will want to look at it before you leave the store. You want one that will fit into your filter without being crushed and won't require you to do a lot of carving to make it fit. If you can talk to one of the sales reps who actually knows what the product looks like, you can probably get to the point that you are just verifying it is alright and not need to open every box on the shelf to find one the right size.
On the subject of filter flow drops during a water change, a canister filter will stay full by the siphon effect and the pump just needs enough power to push water back up to the tank, so it is more forgiving when the level drops. A HOB does not sit below the tank but at or above the water line. It gets no help staying full when the water level goes down so it will be affected much sooner by the changing water level.
 
Thanks OM. That really cleared up my sponge dilemma. So all i gotta do is make my way to the LFS and ask for a sponge that is made for TopFin 20 filter *thats the one i have*. Now i read up on WDs idea of cutting 1/3rd of the sponge size to fit into the filter system. I might need some more clarification regarding that. Wow guys, i have to say, this forum has been so helpful...words cant describe it. I am still fairly new to this hobby and all of your input guys...just made it so easy on me. Thanks everyone!
 
My own guess is that there will not be a sponge that says on it that it fits the 20. That is why I tried to describe the nature of sponge to look for. The AC70 sponge that I bought went onto the outside of a Tom Rapids mini's intake tube. It is to remove baby fish so they don't get sucked up by the filter's flow. The filter in this case was only rated for a 20 gallon but the sponge I found was designed for another brand and would have fit their filter that is designed for a 70 gallon. There is no such thing as sacred when it comes to a fishkeeper trying to get something to fit a filter. We use whatever works and the heck with the manufacturer's suggestions.
 

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