Too Much Filtering?

Nick Bramley

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Hi, I've got an Aqua one AR620 90l tank and was thinking of adding an Aqua one CF500 canister filter to aid my tanks wet/dry trickle filter system, would this lead to too much filtration?

My current filter system is very good but I want the tank water to be crystal clear for my fish. If adding the canister filter is too much I'll probably stop using the trickle system and just use the canister as there supposed to be very effective.

Your suggestion will be much appreciated

Nick
 
The wet/dry system is actually very good for ammonia and other toxin break down because the system adds more oxygen to your water than a canister. They are really good at biological filtration because of this increase in oxygen, which is used by the beneficial bacteria to reproduce. However, having the canister filter won't hurt. You can use it to stir up dead zones in the tank, more suface movement, and a stronger current in your tank. I've tried to do a little more filtration than what is needed.
 
You can never have too much filtration. You can have too much current though. If the filters are causing too much current, just find a way to kill the current and you will be fine.

Ryan
 
You cant have too much filtering in those 620's Nick,take it from me. I have one(620T) and use a fluval plus 2 next to the pick up tube on the left in mine- I dont rate the inbuilt aqua one that much. As soon as i got the fluval in it really polished my water.
 
You can never have too much filtration. You can have too much current though. If the filters are causing too much current, just find a way to kill the current and you will be fine.

Ryan


spot on, unless the fish are pinned to teh walls of the aquarium you're probably all right :D
 
The wet/dry system is actually very good for ammonia and other toxin break down because the system adds more oxygen to your water than a canister. They are really good at bological filtration because of this increase in oxygen, whiuch is used by th ebeneficial bacteria to reproduce. However, having the canister filter hurt. You can use it to stur up dead zones in the tank, more surface tension, andd a stronger current in your tank. I've tried to do a little more filtration than what is needed.

darknirvana, you have some confusion over what some of these terms mean, or you are just plain using them wrong.

Firstly, when I am sure that the bacteria does use oxygen to reproduce, the main reason they need oxygen is because that is what they need to sustain life.

Look at the what the ammonia-consuming bacteria do. They convert ammonia, chemical formula of NH4 (N for nitrogen, H for hydrogen) to nitrite, chemical formula of NO2- (O for oxygen). They have to have oxygen to convert the ammonia to nitrite because ammonia has not oxygen in it's chemical formula and nitrite does. This isn't just to reproduce -- this is simply to live. This is a process called oxidation, and the bacteria are commonly called "ammonia oxidizing bacteria" (AOB). This oxidation reaction is the bacteria's main source of energy.

The nitrite consuming bacteria do exactly the same thing. They excrete nitrate, chemical formula NO3-, as their waste. They also have to have oxygen to live, because oxidizing nitrite into nitrate is the "nitrite oxidizing bacteria's" (NOB) main source of energy just like the AOB. Nitrate has one more oxygen atom in its formula than nitrite, so it has to get that from the air.

Secondly, the surface tension of the water is pretty much independent of how much or how little filtering is going on. It is much more a function of what oils and organic compounds are dissolved in the water. Unless lots of nitrate builds up,it usually won't have a large effect on the surface tension at all. In fact, the concentrations of most stuff in a fish tank are so low that they won't have an effect on the surface tension. I think that you might be thinking of a different concept, because the way you've used the phrase surface tension doesn't make much sense at all. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension

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Nick, there is no such thing as "too much filtration." Biologically, the number of bacteria grow in response the rate of production of waste from your fish. Adding another filter to your tank doesn't change the number of bacteria -- it may change where they are located as bacteria move into your new filter, that will be at the expense of the number in the old filter. If you don't change the number of fish, or their feeding habits, then you won't change their rate of ammonia production, so there will still be the same number of bacteria. The number of bacteria doesn't care how many machines you have moving water around, 1, 2, 10 ... doesn't matter to the bacteria.

However, the fish might. Depending on your fish, they may not like having too many currents in their tank. If the fish are from slow moving streams or ponds, they definitely won't like strong currents. If they are from fast moving streams or rivers, however, they might really like some additional current. This is where researching your fish pays off.

If you want your water "crystal clear" (as an aside, I don't know why you'd really want that -- water is nature isn't crystal clear and crystal clear water doesn't necessarily correspond to a healthy tank -- but to each their own) you'd probably want to get a micron filter or diatom filter or something like that. Maybe using activated carbon, or zeolite, too. A combination of mechanical/chemical filtration will polish the water.
 
Cheers, made the thread yesterday morning and didn't realise until late last night I'd made two by accident.

Thanks for your help
 
I would think that for a planted environment, you could have too much filtering in so much as the filter could be removing nutrients that the plants could otherwise need or benefit from. I believe the EI folks overload the water with nutrients and then at the end of the week remove them via a water change. So I guess it wouldn't matter in that case. In a low tech planted environment (no EI dosing), I would not want to "over" filter. On the other hand, if you have no plants or plastic plants, filter away. At my lfs, they have their filter system set up so that they are doing like a 100% water change every hour or something like that. Don't know the actually turnover rate, but it is a constant water change. Keeps the water very clean.
 
I would think that for a planted environment, you could have too much filtering in so much as the filter could be removing nutrients that the plants could otherwise need or benefit from. I believe the EI folks overload the water with nutrients and then at the end of the week remove them via a water change. So I guess it wouldn't matter in that case. In a low tech planted environment (no EI dosing), I would not want to "over" filter. On the other hand, if you have no plants or plastic plants, filter away. At my lfs, they have their filter system set up so that they are doing like a 100% water change every hour or something like that. Don't know the actually turnover rate, but it is a constant water change. Keeps the water very clean.
 
The only way to have too much filtration is if the flow rate out of the filter is so large it makes a "whirlpool" in the tank.
 
I would think that for a planted environment, you could have too much filtering in so much as the filter could be removing nutrients that the plants could otherwise need or benefit from.

Filtration does not remove the nutrients added to a planted tank. In fact, over filtration is very much the in thing for high growth planted tanks. I am setting up a 240l tank that will have two Tetratec EX 1200 filters running with a minimal amount of media, to keep the flow rates up. It`s all about getting nutrients, and CO2 in particular, to the four corners of a tank. With a lot of plants and hardscape, this isn`t always easy.

Filtration, like lighting, water changes etc. is horses for courses. Think about what your goal is, and modify accordingly.

Bignose, although crystal clear water isn`t natural, it is considered vital by serious "aquascapers". I am off to the Rio Negro some time, so will experience first hand how dark and murky the mother land of my fish actually is. :shifty:

Dave.
 
over filtration is very much the in thing for high growth planted tanks
Yes I noted the excepting in a high growth environment (by which I'm referring to CO2 injections, EI dosing). In my view, this is life in a test tube (or a tank), an artificial environment. I can stay alive in an intensive care ward with enough tubes stuck in me and machines to function for me. Plants in the "real" world are a significant part of the filtering systems of our streams and estuaries. Filter systems in aquariums (if overdone) become something the plants have to compete with (unless there is dosing going on).

I was referring to a low tech planted tank (no CO2 or EI). I have to question your statement regarding
Filtration does not remove the nutrients added to a planted tank
Biological and chemical filtering removes organic compounds that the plants compete for. Are you saying that carbon filtering or other filter media (some remove phosphates, nitrates, etc) are not removing nutrients. If I might quote Diana Walstad "Plants use ammonium to synthesize their proteins. Thus, when nitrifying bacteria convert ammoniun to nitrates, plants are forced - at great energy - to convert nitrates back to ammonium." She goes on to say "In my planted tanks I have been surprised at how little biological filtration is actually required. When I decrease biological filtration (by removing the filter media in the canister filter), I had fewer problems with the nitrate accumulation and water acidification. Now I've replaced the filters altogether with submerged pumps that just circulate the water."

From Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist. Pages 111 & 112.

I'm not wanting to argue within anyone (because I'm not an expert), I was just pointing out that a different point of view (from an expert) does exist.
 
Maybe saying filtration doesn`t remove plant nutrients was too general a statement ,but I never really quantified it because anybody with nitrate and phosphate removing media doesn`t understand how planted tanks work.

I use Purigen to remove organic nitrates to keep the water clear, but it is the salts I add in the form of KNO3 and KH2PO4 that the plants feed off as a priority.

The primary function of the filters in my tanks are for water movement, it would be fair to say.

Plants generally outcompete the filter anyway, because they get first dibs on the ammonia being produced, thus depriving the AOB in the planted aquarium and reducing their numbers. I doubt whether a filter will outcompete the plants for nutrients.

Dave
 

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