Thinking of the future...Questions and ideas

[cowgirluntamed]

OK well...All of my fish have been put down now except my super red calico bristlenose pleco. Hated making the decision but it was for the best. Stupid parasites. Swim in peace now little friends.

So I'm just trying to think of the future instead of my current health issues. My first neurologist appointment is in the morning and then I get an MRI and x-rays of the neck on Sunday with an appointment March 2nd on those unless they see something more urgent....So anyway.....Back to fish...

First off...Total breakdown and complete clean up of my 20 gallon. I do want to set this up again. However I will be making some changes. I won't be running the canister filter in this again. I just want to do a nice sponge filter(absolutely fell in love with the one I have in the ten gallon other my pleco right now).

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+3954&pcatid=3954

That's the link, it's the number 2 filter for up to 30 gallons. Now...One may work but I was almost thinking 2.

This tank will be planted. I will be getting plants going really well first and foregoing the traditional cycle. Though I will put some Malaysian trumpet snails in as I will be using playsand as substrate. I will use flourish comprehensive and flourish root tabs as fertiliser.

Now, I originally wanted to do 15 neons in this tank and just use nerite snails as algae cleanup. (My tanks seem to like green spot no matter what. Lol.) Then my 50-55 gallon tank I wanted to do a big group of glowlight tetras and harlequin rasboras with my bristlenose.

But now...I'm almost thinking of doing just glowlights in the 20 seeing as how fragile neons can be nowadays. The glowlights I had were really nice in their on their own before I had black neons. I think the black neons were just too active for them. Anyway...My thoughts were maybe like 12 glowlights? Or could I do 15 of those in the 20 gallon? It's a high tank, not long. The bristlenose also may or may not be in this tank...Which brings me to the big tank now.

I will also be getting plants going in this one first. (50-55 gallons, not real sure). I still would really like to do a tiger barb tank with half regular tiger barbs and half of the green tiger barbs. A week or so ago I went into Petsway(smaller chain store) and thy always have different fish. Petsmart has had some green ones which is where I learned about them but they were never very colored up. But I saw some really amazing green ones at Petsway. And it just made me stop and think, especially after the decision I made on putting my recent tetras down. I almost just want something different.

I love the glowlights, which is why I was asking about the 20. Now...Could a school of 30 (or more??) tiger barbs go in a 50-55 gallon? It was said that 12-20 could go in a 40 breeder when I asked about that size. And...I had planned on the bristlenose going into this tank as its bigger....Would it be OK with the barbs or would it do better in the 20 with the glowlights? I know barbs are pretty active and I wouldn't want it to be picked on. It's a pretty skittish pleco. If it went in the 20 I wouldn't do nerites. I could put a bunch of those in with the barbs. The big tank also will have a canister filter as well.

So...What does everyone think?? Stick with neons for small tank and glowlights and rasboras for the big tank or go with glowlights for small and barbs for big? Nothing will be happening for a while due to my medical issues but at least I can plan ahead and have nice dreams.

 

[Byron]

I am sincerely sorry to hear of your health issues, and I certainly wish you success. I have been dealing with cancer for 9+ years now, so I have some idea what all these tests and treatments can do to one. God speed.

To your fish questions.

Sponge filter, the #2 would be perfect and all you need. I have one of these in my 20g, one in both my 29's, and one in my 40g. With quiet sedate fish (non-active swimmers) this is perfect filtration as it does a tremendous job of keeping the water clear, biologically active, and very minimal current.

Plants, snails, fertilizers, no "cycle"...bang on. I follow this every time.

In the 20g...12 glowlights with no other fish, the snails and plants, fine. However, if your water is soft to very soft, this could be better with smaller species and more of them. Thinking of things like Boraras rasboras, pygmy cories, etc. Up to you, and as I say I don't know parameters.

Barbs would work in the 55g, and if Tiger 30 are fine. With several chunks of wood the BN might be OK. As was mentioned by others in another recent thread, the BN in a 20g is pretty tight considering its bioload. Loaches would be OK for the substrate, depending upon species (and again parameters).

Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks for the support Byron. Hopefully they can figure me out soon.

Parameters I think are on the medium hard to hard side to be honest. You actually helped me narrow down hardier species of tetras/rasboras a while back though at the time I also didn't ask about the barbs.

Mostly my ph is 8.2 consistantly. My last water tests were actually in September. If you want new ones for the tap water I can get them pretty easily but these will be for the tap and the 20 gallon at that time. (Also, I'm on well water.)

Using the API freshwater master test kit plus the liquid gh/kh test kits. Those last two are how many drops I put in before it changes color.

Tap water
Ph-8.2
Am-0.25
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-5-10
Kh-15
Gh-17

20 gallon
Ph-8.2
Am-0-0.25(my test kit would always read here so would always watch fish health. Higher than this the glowlights started to lose color and that only happened when I changed substrates and had a minicycle).
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0-5
Kh-11-12
Gh-13

All of my tanks would always test lower for gh and kh than when I tested it from the tap. I honestly have no idea why that is.

Also, you say the bristlenose "might" be fine. Even with wood and hiding places...Is it possible the barbs would pick on it then? Or would it just be stressed out because they are active? I know plecos need the wood for digestion so it would be in their regardless. So if the pleco wouldn't be safe with the barbs and had to go in the 20...And I still wanted glowlights, could I say do around 8 glowlights with the pleco? The breeder I got it from says the parents are only 4 inches if that helps. I know they are messy though. Seeing as this one is my last current fish I do want to do what's best though. I can always do different things and tiger barbs could be later if need be.

I just have no idea what to do with the 20 if I don't do neons. I can always still do glowlights and harlequins for the big tank so the bristlenose can go in their if that is the best option. I do love the small fish. I am thinking of asking Petsway if they can order fish for people since they are smaller than Petsmart but I don't know if they would or not. Other than those two my only other options are online. But suggestions are definitely welcome if you can think of anything that can work in a 20 with my parameters.

 

[Byron]

I don't like to be definite on issues like the BN and Tiger Barbs because the barbs temperament can be so different from factors like the number in the shoal, environment and tank size, not to mention individual fish. But with enough of them, and with the wood, I would think the BN would be OK. At the same time, I think it would manage in the 20g.

One thought for the 20g is Pristella Tetra. This tetra manages in much harder water than most any other, believed to be due to its enormous geographical range that takes it in very soft to moderately hard water. To explain, this is not saying the water parameters change where the fish are living, but the fish is found in streams having harder water. So the species has evolved to manage. It does not tolerate fluctuations, meaning that it will not be in soft water one day and hard the next. Permanent populations can live in either, but only one or the other.

Another is the Silvertip Tetra, Hasemania nana. And the Penguin or False Penguin Tetra, Thayeria boehlkei. This is probably the species still seen as "Penguin" or "Hockeystick Tetra," though the true species is Thayeria obliqua but it should have a bit more room in length. Check these on Seriously Fish for photos.

There are a couple that could work parameter-wise, but need more space (length). The Red Eye or Beacon Tetra, Moenkhausia sanctaefilomenae is one, another is the Emperor Tetra, Nematobrycon palmeri.

 

[StevenF]

All of my tanks would always test lower for gh and kh than when I tested it from the tap. I honestly have no idea why that is.

Plants consume calcium and magnesium when they grow. These elements are the primary ones measured by the GH and KH tests.

Good luck with your tests. I have gone through several heart issues and blood clotting issues the last few years.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I don't like to be definite on issues like the BN and Tiger Barbs because the barbs temperament can be so different from factors like the number in the shoal, environment and tank size, not to mention individual fish. But with enough of them, and with the wood, I would think the BN would be OK. At the same time, I think it would manage in the 20g.

One thought for the 20g is Pristella Tetra. This tetra manages in much harder water than most any other, believed to be due to its enormous geographical range that takes it in very soft to moderately hard water. To explain, this is not saying the water parameters change where the fish are living, but the fish is found in streams having harder water. So the species has evolved to manage. It does not tolerate fluctuations, meaning that it will not be in soft water one day and hard the next. Permanent populations can live in either, but only one or the other.

Another is the Silvertip Tetra, Hasemania nana. And the Penguin or False Penguin Tetra, Thayeria boehlkei. This is probably the species still seen as "Penguin" or "Hockeystick Tetra," though the true species is Thayeria obliqua but it should have a bit more room in length. Check these on Seriously Fish for photos.

There are a couple that could work parameter-wise, but need more space (length). The Red Eye or Beacon Tetra, Moenkhausia sanctaefilomenae is one, another is the Emperor Tetra, Nematobrycon palmeri.

Hm..I think I love the idea of the pristella tetra! I do love the look of those. Though I would have to see if Petsway could oder them for me or otherwise I would have to order online. If I did that...And kept the big tank for glowlights, harlequins, and the bristlenose, how many pristellas would go in the 20? Still 12?

Also, I was asking about the stocking a bit ago for this bigger tank when I decided to only go with two schools. And someone mentioned I could have 25 each of the glowlights and harlequins? Or is this too many since I also have the bristlenose? Seems like maybe 20 each might be better?

Plants consume calcium and magnesium when they grow. These elements are the primary ones measured by the GH and KH tests.

Good luck with your tests. I have gone through several heart issues and blood clotting issues the last few years.

Even if there weren't that many plants in there? I don't have access to my notebook at the moment (at work) so can't say when i started testing for gh and kh, but I've never really had the tank well planted. I only started with a couple of anubias in it.

I went to see the ear/nose/throat for sinus and ear problems and they are sending me to the neurologist and neurosurgeon. Nothing is wrong with my ear...Something is in my neck. Headaches may not be from sinuses...So I get to see the neurologist from that. Though now I'm getting facial twitches and my thumbs want to twitch....Sometimes for hours....Yay....Hopefully they will get me figured out.

 

[Byron]

Hm..I think I love the idea of the pristella tetra! I do love the look of those. Though I would have to see if Petsway could oder them for me or otherwise I would have to order online. If I did that...And kept the big tank for glowlights, harlequins, and the bristlenose, how many pristellas would go in the 20? Still 12?

Pristella is being commercially raised and is frequently available, so you should see it periodically, or the store should have no trouble getting some. It is wild caught fish that many stores are unable to order. In the 20g, I would say 7-9 Pristella. With 7, you could have a small group (5) of cories (one of the commercially raised species) if you like, or a Whiptail would manage with the parameters. Rineloricaria parva is the small "common" species. I like this fish, and have had one (or more) in a tank for many years.

Also, I was asking about the stocking a bit ago for this bigger tank when I decided to only go with two schools. And someone mentioned I could have 25 each of the glowlights and harlequins? Or is this too many since I also have the bristlenose? Seems like maybe 20 each might be better?

In the 55g, you can have a lot more than even this (two groups of 25). With this size fish, I would be around 60-70 before I would worry. I'm assuming you will have some plants, floating are ideal for water quality and shade for the fish which these forest fish appreciate. The BN too, maybe some cories? Or... ???

On the GH/KH lowering...Steven is correct on plants using the calcium, and magnesium, but in my experience this is much less than what you would ever detect with our basic tests like the API GH/KH liquid test. I used to raise the GH in three tanks using Equilibrium, which is simply these minerals, and after a full week the GH did not lower at all, using the test; it was raised up to 5 and it was still 5 seven days later. Only the water change then reduced the GH as the fresh water was zero GH. So there may be some other factors at work, or something causing the source water numbers to be inaccurate to start with.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Pristella is being commercially raised and is frequently available, so you should see it periodically, or the store should have no trouble getting some. It is wild caught fish that many stores are unable to order. In the 20g, I would say 7-9 Pristella. With 7, you could have a small group (5) of cories (one of the commercially raised species) if you like, or a Whiptail would manage with the parameters. Rineloricaria parva is the small "common" species. I like this fish, and have had one (or more) in a tank for many years.

Not sure I can find that whiptail that you mention. Petsmart might have a whiptail but I'm not sure. Haven't looked at fish there much lately. The place online I was thinking of getting fish has a whiptail but not the parva. https://www.petsolutions.com/C/Live-Freshwater-Fish-Catfish/I/Loricara-Whiptail-Catfish.aspx

But I do like the peppered cories and I think they would be the hardiest out of all of them. I do also like the metae and the agassizzi cory. These I've only seen on this website though and the metaes are always sold out.

In the 55g, you can have a lot more than even this (two groups of 25). With this size fish, I would be around 60-70 before I would worry. I'm assuming you will have some plants, floating are ideal for water quality and shade for the fish which these forest fish appreciate. The BN too, maybe some cories? Or... ???

Wow...Really?? And yes...Most definitely planted as long as I can keep the parasites away!! Another reason why I'm doing plants only first!! I'm going to set up a system where I treat them with alum and then quarantine them for a couple of weeks before going in the tanks I think...Or something. For floating plants I was thinking of Amazon frogbit or trying again with water lettuce. I love the look of both but I wonder if having glass lids that the water lettuce might do better? And then in the 55 I was also thinking of wisteria floating. I was wanting some amazon swords as well but I've heard recently that they aren't compatible with bristlenoses? That the leaves are too soft and they tend to get eaten? Is this true?

As for other fish...I'm not sure about cories for this one. I kind of just wanted huge shoals of the tetras. So could I up the number to 30 each then?

Also....Once this tank is set up and growing plants really well(I would be showing off pictures and only getting fish when the time is right), do I have to add fish slowly or could they go in all at once? Or like half and half?

On the GH/KH lowering...Steven is correct on plants using the calcium, and magnesium, but in my experience this is much less than what you would ever detect with our basic tests like the API GH/KH liquid test. I used to raise the GH in three tanks using Equilibrium, which is simply these minerals, and after a full week the GH did not lower at all, using the test; it was raised up to 5 and it was still 5 seven days later. Only the water change then reduced the GH as the fresh water was zero GH. So there may be some other factors at work, or something causing the source water numbers to be inaccurate to start with.

Hmmm...I'll probably never know but the fish always seemed to like the water changes so I don't think the difference was hurting them, if there truly was a difference. The water is very tasty though! Lol.

 

[Byron]

Not sure I can find that whiptail that you mention. Petsmart might have a whiptail but I'm not sure. Haven't looked at fish there much lately. The place online I was thinking of getting fish has a whiptail but not the parva. https://www.petsolutions.com/C/Live-Freshwater-Fish-Catfish/I/Loricara-Whiptail-Catfish.aspx

But I do like the peppered cories and I think they would be the hardiest out of all of them. I do also like the metae and the agassizzi cory. These I've only seen on this website though and the metaes are always sold out.

That's an identical Whiptail, so if you like it, no problem. There are three different species regularly offered as "Whiptail" Catfish [not to be confused with the "Royal Whiptail" species which are much larger]--Rineloricaria fallax, R. lanceolata and R. parva--that have slight variations in pattern and the placement of the ventral scutes. It is also possible that some available fish may be hybrids between these three and other species. All have identical requirements in the aquarium. The average lifespan is 5-8 years; my R. parva is now in its ninth year and still going strong, and I've had my two "Red Lizard Whiptails" (which are probably derived from the R. parva) for seven years now. Some sources place these fish in the genus Hemiloricaria, but to date this is not an accepted placement. H'm, that reminds me...if you see the red version, something a bit different, though not as readily available and much more expensive.

Cories sound fine, my only concern is if the C. metae and C. agassizzi are wild caught. I haven't heard these are being commercially raised, so if wild the GH may be an issue. The peppered (C. paleatus) should be OK with this.

Wow...Really?? And yes...Most definitely planted as long as I can keep the parasites away!! Another reason why I'm doing plants only first!! I'm going to set up a system where I treat them with alum and then quarantine them for a couple of weeks before going in the tanks I think...Or something. For floating plants I was thinking of Amazon frogbit or trying again with water lettuce. I love the look of both but I wonder if having glass lids that the water lettuce might do better? And then in the 55 I was also thinking of wisteria floating. I was wanting some amazon swords as well but I've heard recently that they aren't compatible with bristlenoses? That the leaves are too soft and they tend to get eaten? Is this true?

Floating plants sound good. I am of two minds about the tank cover issue and floating plants. All my tanks are covered, and my problems with floating plants in some of these are probably not due to the covers.

I can't see BN harming Amazon swords. About the only thing that will eat swords are some loach species, oddly enough. My Botia kubotai nibble holes in one sword, but never sufficient to kill it. A BN would graze the leaves for algae, but sword plant leaves are pretty tough, not as tough as Java Fern, but not delicate for sure. The Whiptails will graze algae off plant leaves too, but less in my experience; mine tend to prefer wood and the sand substrate. The Red Lizard Whiptails live in the base of my swords, vertical against a leaf stalk, when they're not out browsing.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

That's an identical Whiptail, so if you like it, no problem. There are three different species regularly offered as "Whiptail" Catfish [not to be confused with the "Royal Whiptail" species which are much larger]--Rineloricaria fallax, R. lanceolata and R. parva--that have slight variations in pattern and the placement of the ventral scutes. It is also possible that some available fish may be hybrids between these three and other species. All have identical requirements in the aquarium. The average lifespan is 5-8 years; my R. parva is now in its ninth year and still going strong, and I've had my two "Red Lizard Whiptails" (which are probably derived from the R. parva) for seven years now. Some sources place these fish in the genus Hemiloricaria, but to date this is not an accepted placement. H'm, that reminds me...if you see the red version, something a bit different, though not as readily available and much more expensive.

Cories sound fine, my only concern is if the C. metae and C. agassizzi are wild caught. I haven't heard these are being commercially raised, so if wild the GH may be an issue. The peppered (C. paleatus) should be OK with this.



Floating plants sound good. I am of two minds about the tank cover issue and floating plants. All my tanks are covered, and my problems with floating plants in some of these are probably not due to the covers.

I can't see BN harming Amazon swords. About the only thing that will eat swords are some loach species, oddly enough. My Botia kubotai nibble holes in one sword, but never sufficient to kill it. A BN would graze the leaves for algae, but sword plant leaves are pretty tough, not as tough as Java Fern, but not delicate for sure. The Whiptails will graze algae off plant leaves too, but less in my experience; mine tend to prefer wood and the sand substrate. The Red Lizard Whiptails live in the base of my swords, vertical against a leaf stalk, when they're not out browsing.

Thanks for all the information once again Byron! I may look into the whiptail, it does look kind of neat. Either that or the peppered cories for the 20 with the 7 pristella tetras.

I think my last question is, how do I add the fish? Can I fully stock both tanks when the plants are doing well or do I need to do it more gradually?

 

[Byron]

Thanks for all the information once again Byron! I may look into the whiptail, it does look kind of neat. Either that or the peppered cories for the 20 with the 7 pristella tetras.

I think my last question is, how do I add the fish? Can I fully stock both tanks when the plants are doing well or do I need to do it more gradually?

This depends upon the plant species and number, and the fish species and number. If you have fast-growing plants, and floating plants that show they are in fact growing, these are best. They take up more ammonia/ammonium. The nitrifying bacteria will still colonize the tank but slowly because the plants are using most of the ammonia/ammonium, and of course there is no nitrite to deal with. Provided there are good growing plants, it is almost impossible to add too many fish, but I would still go easy.

With shoaling fish, it is always best to add the entire group at the same time. They will always settle in much better and faster, regardless of species. You won't have much in the way of inter-species interaction that can sometimes be detrimental when you are dealing with an aggressive species (like say Tiger Barbs) where it is very important to add them together, but it is still a good practice. They really do settle in much faster, and that means less stress to weaken the fish.

Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

This depends upon the plant species and number, and the fish species and number. If you have fast-growing plants, and floating plants that show they are in fact growing, these are best. They take up more ammonia/ammonium. The nitrifying bacteria will still colonize the tank but slowly because the plants are using most of the ammonia/ammonium, and of course there is no nitrite to deal with. Provided there are good growing plants, it is almost impossible to add too many fish, but I would still go easy.

With shoaling fish, it is always best to add the entire group at the same time. They will always settle in much better and faster, regardless of species. You won't have much in the way of inter-species interaction that can sometimes be detrimental when you are dealing with an aggressive species (like say Tiger Barbs) where it is very important to add them together, but it is still a good practice. They really do settle in much faster, and that means less stress to weaken the fish.

Byron.

Thanks again Byron. I only know a few plants other than what I said. I'm going to try dwarf sag again for the 20. Not sure if I will put it in the bigger one. I would like crypt wendtii in both tanks(almost carpeting in the big one lol) and maybe another kind of crypt. Other than that I'm not sure yet. Anubias grows well. I wouldn't mind trying a lily(can't remember the name). At least I can take my time and figure out what works.

Again, thank you so much for the information. You've given me a lot to think about and plan for. Hopefully this time around things will go much better!