The One You Were Dreading...

[Siamese Fighter05]

Hey Everyone

Some of you may know i'm planning on starting up a new nano
It's about the plumbing side of my setup, getting the water to and from my sump

The Details:

Tank 24" x 15" x 15"
Sump 18" x 12" x 12"

Total system volume = 34 Gallons

Vertical Distance from sump pump to bulkhead in tank = 38"
90 degree angles = 3

I'm aiming for a 25X Turnover per hour I'd really appreciate it if someone could help me out with the following questions

* What size hole should i have drilled into the tank for Out and also In bulkheads (Same size for both?)
* What diameter piping would you reccomend? Same for both in and out again?
* Which Pump would you reccomend to deliver the 25XPH Turnover after compensating for the height and 90 degree elbows? (UK)

I'd like to try and keep the tank running relativley quiet, so where the water is being drained into the sump what could i use to stop the splashing? etc.

Final question for now

* I'm just using the sump as a basement to keep all the equipment such as heaters, thermometers etc out of the display tank. Is it okay to just use it like this without any wall dividers where the water flows through?

(Basically Everything is in the same chamber such as the water in and out of the sump piping as well as the heaters etc)

Thanks
Dan

 

[jakeroberts]

Sounds like a good setup sorry i can't help you with the Q's as im only new to marine

 

[SkiFletch]

Wow ok Dan, here we go. Putting 25 times flow through a sump is difficult and rarely reccomended. It's a process that is very electrically inefficient, and requires big drain fittings. Your display tank is 24gallons requiring 600gph flow through the sump to achieve your 25x turnover. 600gph requires a MINIMUM of 1" drain bulkheads and I'd be more inclined to go with 1.5"ers for safety. Then you have to think about the physical size of a bulkhead that big and your durso or calfo overflow needs to be and you're running out of tank real estate really fast...

Since you're going for a minimalist look I'd suggest going with a combination of a sump and a closed loop. Perhaps we should start with a question for ya, what size bulkheads can you source? I'm pretty unfamiliar with what you can get on your side of the pond, so we'll need to start with what you have before we start reccomending pumps.

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Cheers Ski

I knew if anyone could help me it would be you

TBH a closed loop system is something that had completely left my thoughts but the moment you mentioned it, it came straight back and i thought 'oh yeah'

I was thinking to myself when writing for 25X per hour through the sump seemed a little crazy

I've done some more research on what you meant by ineffiecient and so on and i've come to the conclusion that you're talking about the size of the pmup needed to produce that much turnover considering the headloss!

With this in mind i'd have to say i agree with you and that the airtight CLS would be more economical in delivering the bulk of my circulation.

Because i know how complicated the plumbing up a CLS and sump can be with me, i'll try and sort out the sump 1st before i even begin on the CLS.
I'd like my sump to now deliver somewhere between the reccomended 3-5 turnover!

So here i go again!

To The Sump

Basically i'd like to have the tank drilled in the bottom corner with a bulkhead using a 90degree bend sending the piping down towards the sump.
Then a 2nd 90degree bend sending the piping through a pre-cut hole in the back of the stand.
A final 90degree bend will send the piping vertically down into the sump.

Questions At This Stage

1. What security measure could i use to stop the tank draining completley into the sump in the event of a powercut etc.?

2. What protection can i use on the drilled hole to stop snails blocking it up or fish falling down?

3. What noise prevention methods could i use to reduce splashing noise as the water hits the sump?

In The Sump

As i said earlier this basically just a stand tank where the water enter at one end, is then temperature checked, heater before being sent back up to the tank via the external powerhead.

Questions!

1. Is this okay or will i need to use glass dividers etc?

2. I want to reduce bubbles into the tank through the piping what is the best way to achieve this?

Back To The Tank

Finally, the water is drawn into the external pump before being pushed back up into the tank again through piping and some 90 degree bends (Will try and use 45degrees if possible)
The inlet bulkhead will be connected tubing halfway up the tank which will blow into the back of the LR to try and increase water movement around this area.

Head height from the pump to the in bulkhead well be around the 34-40" mark.

Questions

1. Now that we have a more realistic water flow throught the sump which pump would you reccomend?
2. What size piping diameter and hole drilled would you reccomend?

I shouldn't have too many problems finding most sizes of bulkhead to be honest Ski but i think now that we have adjusted the flow rate it should be one of the easier sizes i'm looking for now anway, right?

Thanks for any help in advance
Dan

 

[SkiFletch]

Drain:

Beware using 90 degree bends on a drain line, they clog easily. Is it possible to use twin 45 degree bends to accomplish what you want? Also at the top of the drain (inside the display) you'll need to setup a "durso" standpipe which is usually done by using a Tee fitting on the top of the pipe, pointing upwards and sideways. The sideways portion has a right angle pointing down for the drain and the upward portion is capped with a hole drilled in it to allow the drain to breathe and auto-start in the case of a power outage. The height of the Tee determines the water level inside the inner weir and also prevents catastrophic draining should your weir walls fail. The weir walls prevent snails from getting in there. And the ultimate level of protection is to use twin drain lines, each capable of draining the flowrate, one higher than the other as a "backup" in case a snail or obsruction does get in the drain.

The Sump:

If you're not planning elaborate refugiums, the easiest way to do this is to just use a filter sock to catch the air bubbles. These should be changed as-neeeded (they'll start to overflow when full), and washed in bleach only and rinsed a few times before re-use. How to eliminate splashing sounds here, I have no idea, but if you figure it out, let me know

The Return:

I'd go with a submersible pump with the lower flowrates you're talking of. Assuming the sump will be under the display, something like an Eheim 1048 or 1250. Perhaps the smallest oceanrunner pump you can get your hands on... You prolly want something in the 9' max head range and say 3-500gph range. Dont choose your bulkheads until you have the pump and flowrate decided upon, that's the last step

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Thanks again Ski

I've looked at the Eheim Compact 1000 for the sump and the 2000+ for the CLS do you know much about these pumps. I think if my calculations are correct that the 2000 will deliver just over the 20X turnover i want and that the sump should deliver somewhere around the 5X mar after headloss

I think i should be able to source 45degrees instead of 90 quite easily

Do you have any pictures to demonstrate a durso standpipe?

Thanks again Ski your a star

 

[SkiFletch]

The 1000 might actually be too small for your application... Do you have a feel for the distance between the top of the water in your sump to the top of the water in your display tank? At only 6.5 feet of head, you'll prolly struggle with a traditional undertank sump and the compact 1000 pump. TBH, the 2000+ would prolly work better as a sump pump . Also, submersibles are not what you want for a closed loop, you want external pumps. A more traditional eheim with the threaded connections is what you want here.

dursostandpipes.com

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Thanks again Ski

I'd guess the distance between the surface of the sump and the surface of the tank at about 35".

I guessed at the 1000 by using the 86litre tank volume (Don't include the sump volume right?) divided by the 1000lph output of the ehiem which gave me 11.6 turnover i kind've guessed at losing 6.5 turnover by headloss etc and thought that this would make the 1000 sufficient. If i gave you the equation would you be able to confirm that the 2000 would be the better choice
Here:

Tank Volume: 86 litres
Pump: 2000lph
Height: 3ft
Bends: 2 x 45degree 1 x 90

For my closed loop i based it on this calculation, if i'm correct (for once) then i don't have to account for any headloss etc as it is an airtight connection so i just used the following calculation:

2000lph (pump) / 86 litre (tank v) = 23 turnover

So i'm looking for a pump around 2000lph mark? What kind of sump is used on a CLS external again?

Thanks again

Dan

 

[SkiFletch]

Ah good sir, time for some edumacation about pump curves . Pumps are rated at a MAXIMUM flowrate at 0 backpressure (head); they are also rated at a maximum head pressure where the pump will shutoff. This is really a theoretical happyland ideal, you'll never get that much flow even off a powerhead dumped in a tank. Regardless, as head pressure increases from zero, your flowrate decreases until you reach shutoff. At this point the impeller is spinning inside the pump, but the physical weight of water above it is preventing it from moving any water. I'm unable to find pump curves for the eheim compact version but most pump curves "look" alike, its just their max flows and head that are different. Here's an example of the other eheim pump curves:

Notice that as head pressure increases, flowrate decreases and that the curves are not quite linear, more parabolic. All centrifugal pumps of the size we're talking about will have similar curves. Larger pumps can be designed to be biased towards head or flow but geometry forces smaller ones to be evenly biased. Also remember that these pump curves are in theoretical happyland, they're almost all skewed towards the right by anywhere from 5-15% in real-world operation.

So, lets consider the eheim compact 1000 with a max flow of 265gph and a MAX head of 6.6 feet. This is somewhere between an Eheim 1250 and an eheim 1048 in terms of specs. Your setup with fittings and head pressure will be approximately 3.5 feet of head loss. So go to that graph and point your mouse between the purple and yellow lines there... You'll see that at that estimated head loss you're talkin around 130gph of actual flow. Then take 10% off cause you never get the theoretical and you're somewhere around 115gph... Which is less than 5x flow. Then assume you're using an inlet strainer and your pump has to REALLY struggle to push water up that high and if you break 100gph I'd be surprised.

If you consider an eheim 2000 with more head and flow capacity, you're prolly more around 150-200gph in real-life operation which is more where you want to be

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Thanks alot Ski now we have the size of the pumps we can start on the plumbing....

I'll give us a little break for now though

Thanks again

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

I'm back

Which External pump that delivers 2000lph would you reccomend for the CLS?

I've looked around and don't really know what to go with...

Thanks Again

 

[SkiFletch]

2000lph exactly is kinda difficult to come by. I'd go with an Ocean Runner 2500 though. A little on the higher end of your flow but should do just fine. Your best bet is to have a single inlet and dual outlets for this project IMO

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Okay i've sourced an AR2500 for the CLS and a Eheim compact + 2000 for the sump and at the same time found all of the other equipment on my list at a cheaper price so i'm pretty chuffed at that

If we start on the plumbing on the CLS first which i hope is easier...?

Okay then, Draining the tank into the sump

The pump delivers as we know 2500lph, what size bulkhead should i go with and then the pipe diameter?
shouldn't have a problem getting any size TBH.

My idea is i want the hole for the outlet of the CLS to be near the centre of the tank at the bottom so it is out the way.
As a newb to this if i put it how i see it, you could put me right? :

Tank > Bulkhead > Straight piping /\ 90 degree bend upwards /\ Straight piping /\ Pump /\ Straight piping < 90 degree bend left < Straight piping < Bulkhead

I know you've mentioned using two outlets but how about using just the one with a 'V' connector inside the tank sending the water in 2 directions. I'd prefer this way as it would reduce the amount of equipment on display? Or would this be too much flow through too little space?
I'll be pointing the V up for my surface agitation, i'm hoping on the sump return to point throught the rockwork?

Thans again

 

[SkiFletch]

Got it backwards there Dan. You'll want to use the return pump as your surface agitation and keep the CLS lower down in the water level. Remember, if the power cuts out and your check valve on your sump return side fails, you don't want your sump return bulkhead too high, else you'll have an empty tank and a very wet floor. Safer to have the sump return higher and use that for surface agitation.

Then for your CLS, you can certainly use a wye or a tee fitting inside the tank. If you're going to do that, I'd go with a bulkhead one size bigger than the thread or barb sizes on your pump (so if your pump has 1/2" fittings, go for 5/8" or 3/4" bulkheads). Also, make sure the pump is sitting on something or suspended somehow. You don't want all the weight of the pump torquing on the bulkheads and glass, that's just ASKING for a leak or worse yet a tank crack.

The reason I suggest twin returns in the tank is that then you can put ball valves to control flow more to one side or the other of the tank. And if you find black bulkheads and paint the back of your tank black, they're really pretty unobtrusive...

Also remember serviceability. So you'll want Tank-->bulkhead-->ball valve-->union-->pump-->union-->ball valve-->tee-->ball valve-->bulkhead-->tank

If you can find what are known as union ball valves, use those on either side of the pump. Because eventually, you WILL have to clean or service it and you'll be kicking yourself if you don't have the ability to shut it off and easily remove it

Lastly, you'll have to find a strainer for the inlet...

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Thanks for your help Ski, i will go ahead and order the pumps when i get the lighting system so then i don't have to pay delivery twice, so be prepared for more questions the start of next month but tbh you've covered most of them already