The Internet Hatred Of Fish-In Cycle?

[Malt_Vinegar]

The fishless cycle has become the standard shout of the "Internet Enthusiast Fish-Keeper" to all and sundry who dare to ask about keeping fish. I think even I was under the spell for a while, and did my fair share of preaching. I am now fairly confident that most preachy fish keepers have never actually completed a fishless cycle to the very end correctly.

I have recently been starting to doubt this principle, and my own research and experience has taught me that the fish-less cycle is slower, needlessly painfull and time consuming when compared to a fish-in cycle.

Now, let me get this straight. I am NOT talking about a 10 gallon tank which has had an overstocked bio-load dumped in and left to its own devices. I am talking about a carefully monitored and cared for low bio load cycle.

A successfull and fish friendly cycle is dependant on the following.

1 - Initial regular testing of ammonia. Three times a day would be a good starting point
2 - Low bio load
3 - Sparse feeding program
4 - Regular water changes to keep contaminant levels under control
5 - Slow increase in bio load after the initial cycle

Whilst initially time-consuming, this soon levels out as the cycle continues. This method has served me well, and does not expose fish to uncomfortable levels of pollutants.

I opened this thread to enable an open discussion on the subject. I have put my own experience and ideas out there and would like to hear your own opinions. Please do not descend into a slanging match over this.

 

[squiggley]

If done correctly, like you mention above, then there's nothing wrong withal fish in cycle
The problem lies with peoples rush to get all the fish they want onto the tank asap. The problem is confounded by the poor information given by many lfs just so that they can sell more fish or "miracle" cycling snake oil.

 

[Twinklecaz]

Before last week I would have run screaming from a fish-in cycle but I had a kinda min-cycle situation and had to do water changes every day. Well, by the end of the week it didn't even bother me. I'd got the knack of doing it quite quickly and almost (almost) enjoyed it.

I do think there's a lot to be said for fish-in. There must be bacteria that can only develop properly with the presence of fish. I'll prob fish-in cycle my next tank.

 

[BethK]

i've done both cycles, fish-in did turn out to be quicker and i had to keep a sharp eye on my tank, with 1 -2 water changes a day but within 6 weeks, i was cycled.


IMO, fish-in cycle takes more dedication, as you have to put the health of the fish first, rather than the cycle.

Now, I would personally advise, if someone has no fish, to select the fishless cycle. However, I will not ridicule someone who attempts a fish-in but if that person's fish are dropping off like flies on a weekly basis and they go out to buy fish to replace, I will advise that that is a bad practice.

As long as people take advice, they shouldn't have much go wrong

 

[kaivalagi]

When I first started out I did a fish-in cycle with Danios and I'll admit I didn't do enough water changes (every other day or so).

I now know the difference between right and wrong and have since seeded any new filters from old and all is good, worst case I had a mini-cycle after seeding a newly setup tank for 2-3 days only and did twice daily water changes whilst getting through it.

I have never done a fish-in cycle and I have seen plenty of people get frustrated with them taking too long, which then inevitably turn into fish-in cycles (albiet it short ones).

There is a "holier than thou" attitude out there for fish-less verses fish-in cycling, but I think this is from a minority of people who are new to the game and have gone through a painfully long period of getting their tanks ready. I can only guess that they might see others doing the "dreaded" fish-in cycle and have a certain amount of jealously of how much quicker it is. Just my opinion!

I personally think it is a necessary "evil" in a way as it tends to get the message through to newbie keepers about the nitrogen cycle, even if they go down the fish-in route they'll be better informed of all the perils they might face and what routine they need to get into.

I obviously have no problem with people doing fish-less or fish-in cycles so long as they read up on the subject and, as mentioned by the OP, make sure that everything is well thought out and managed.

I think as relatively competent keepers we have a responsibility of making sure newbies do the right thing and get the message across, for either method.

Some may argue than all newcomers should do a fish-less cycle due to fish health issues etc but I do believe there may be benefits to fish-in when it comes to all the right types bacteria (more than needed for nitrogen cycle) being setup before more fish are added, and if done with hardy fish first any new fish added have a better time than being added to a tank which has had no fish in it yet (i.e. fish-less cycled). Not sure how this could be proved or disproved however

 

[Mo1959]

I have been trying a fishless cycle for around 8 weeks now and, after having problems with massive ph fluctuations from high with dodgy gravel to extremely low once changed to sand, I have decided to persevere for another couple of weeks and, if still not cycled, am going to go fish in. I currently have a little 35 litre biube with two neon tetras who have been in a fish in cycle for nearly 3 months now and are looking extremely healthy and lively so I know that I can do it with the larger tank if I need to.

I think as long as we fully understand that we owe it to the fish to keep ammonia and nitrite levels no higher than .25ppm we will still get there eventually.

 

[Curiosity101]

I obviously have no problem with people doing fish-less or fish-in cycles so long as they read up on the subject and, as mentioned by the OP, make sure that everything is well thought out and managed.

I think as relatively competent keepers we have a responsibility of making sure newbies do the right thing and get the message across, for either method.

I 100% agree with both of the above, I would always recommend a fishless cycle to any new keepers, but at the same time I will never say 'don't do a fish in cycle'. Just list the pros and cons of both and allow the person to pick. Giving them all the info neccesary to make an informed decision.
It's not for me to with hold information based on my opinion, I try to give as balanced a view as possible at all time... also I try to give 'bespoke' advice based on the persons actual situation.

As for people with tanks already saying your next cycle will be fish-in... I honestly don't see why? If you seed a filter from an established and do fishless it should take a maximum of a week in most cases to get completely done.
It's what I do with any new tanks... 1. I don't see the point of exposing fish to ammonia/nitrite if I have an alternative 2. I honestly can't be bothered with the daily changes that may be neccesary.
I'm not condemning anyone choosing to do fish-in on a new tank (with cycled tank(s) in the house), presumably you'll always seed so it's never going to be a 'from scratch' fish-in anyways. But I am literally asking why, purely cause I'm interested.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Fish-in is easier and quicker. Thats why.

 

[fluvial]

When I started keeping tropical fish last year I bought a simple step by step guide from Amazon.
It taught the Fish - In cycle method.
I followed it to the letter and had absolutely no problems with getting my tank fully cycled.
It was very specific about adding only a few fish every couple of weeks to help the bio load
on the filter.
Result - if I ever needed to set up a new tank from scratch - I would do the same again.

 

[Curiosity101]

Fish-in is easier and quicker. Thats why.

But what's your definition of easier? Twice a day testing and big daily (sometimes twice daily) water changes...?

And where is your proof that it's faster? Seeing as we're culturing the same bacteria surely it isn't any faster? And the only way it'll be 'faster' is if the bacteria are only multiplying up to 'exactly' the level of ammonia the fish are producing as opposed to 5ppm in 12 hours as in most fishless cycles. And that 5ppm value was higher than the value the fish were producing...

However anyone who really has knowledge of a fish-in cycle and the research behind it will tell you that the 5ppm value is meant to be at least as high as any 'fully stocked' tank, as that's the general idea. You've gone to the effort of fishless cycling, you don't want to risk under cycling and exposing the fish to ammonia and nitrites.

Also what's your definition of faster? Is 8 weeks without fish and then a fully stocked tank really slower than say slowly stocking a tank that is fish-in cycling?

Again, not disagreeing with you, I just like people to explain their points of view so I can understand.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Easier for me, and quicker, as for one thing, I never fully stock a tank on day 1.

It does not require addition of ammonia as a separate, and once the initial large water changes are over (in my experience) the maintenance required drops dramatically.

Fishless cycling is fine. I never said i was anti, just Pro Fish-in

 

[Curiosity101]

Oh n just to add that I am aware that a fish-in cycle could be faster if the overall lower ammonia readings that are maintained due to there being fish in the system and the lower levels promote the growth of the bacteria. Or flip side higher levels inhibit the growth, but having seen many fish in and fishless cycling threads I would say it's about even for most people.

Just incase anyone had picked up on me forgetting to mention that.

 

[Twinklecaz]

For me , the whole seeding a new filter thing confused me. My internal is quite "packaged" and I don't know how I'd be able to take out any media without messing up the present tank. Mind you I suppose I could use the noodles?

 

[Curiosity101]

For me , the whole seeding a new filter thing confused me. My internal is quite "packaged" and I don't know how I'd be able to take out any media without messing up the present tank. Mind you I suppose I could use the noodles?

You can either take media and put it in the new filter.

Or clean the mature filter in the uncycled tank much like how you would clean it in a bucket during a water change.

Personally when I'm setting up a new tank I do the latter, but I cycle the filter in a bucket if possible then just transfer it over to the tank once ready.

Edit: just to add, once you have an established colony then taking media away makes little difference, whilever there are nutrients around they will divide exponentially, if you remove half the media and in theory half the bacteria then they're 'in theory' only one division away from being in the same number as before.

 

[Twinklecaz]

Oh ok, good to know thanks

If I ever get round the getting another tank that it. What I need is a new.........concrete upstairs floor!