Tap Water Parameters & Decisions

[kathleen]

Well now that I am on my way and about a week into fishless cycling I decided to familiarize myself with my test kit (Master Test Kit by Hagen). I started with testing my tap water and was immediately discouraged.
The results are as follows:

GH - 240 ppm (13.5 dH)
KH - 190 ppm (10.7 dH)
PO4 - 0.5 ppm
NO3 - 5 ppm
pH - 8.0

Yes, this is what I have seen referred to as 'liquid rock'. I knew my water (well water) was pretty hard but never realized the pH would be so high. After letting a water sample sit out overnight I retested the pH and it was at least 8.6 (this is the limit of the test). My understanding was that the outgasing of CO2 used by municiple water systems would cause the pH to rise however we have well water and no CO2 is added so I'm wondering what else would cause the rise in pH.

I have investigated various ways to reduce pH levels including chemicals, filtration through peat, addition of bogwood, CO2 injection and the use of R/O or distilled water. I am not considering using chemicals at all. With the hardness of my water I understand that lowering pH with peat or bogwood would not work so well plus I'm not sure if I'd like the effect on the water colour. R/O water is not an option at this point due to cost of course.
So that leaves me with CO2 injection. Fine, but I decided before I started that I was going the low light route. I have a 50g tank with 90W (triple T8 fixture) so that's less than 2 WPG. If I inject CO2 will I run into problems with this low light level? Does CO2 injection significantly lower pH and is it stable once it's lowered? How would I handle the fluctuations during water changes? Is a DIY setup reliable? Sorry for all the questions but I need to get this settled otherwise I'm not sure if this whole thing is worth my while. I would be satisfied with a pH of 8 but as I am most interested in a community type tank (no breeding) somewhere in the 7's would be ideal.
If anyone has any suggestions or advice I would be grateful. Thanks.

eta - just put a call in to my LPS and the pH of their water is about 7.6 and they of course recommended a pH adjuster.

Out of curiosity I tested the water from my Brita filter in the fridge. The GH was 90-100 ppm, KH was 130 ppm and the pH was 7.6. Would this water not be OK to use?

 

[SkiFletch]

Well Kathleen, my first suggestion would be to fill the tank, treat with dechlorinator, and see what happens to the pH of the water there over some amount of time (couple days). It might have just been that whatever smaple you had was too small to really tell you what was going on with your water chemically. Who knows, you might get lucky and the water might maintain that pH of 8.0.

Failing that, my next suggestion would be to try out some bogwood in the tank as you mentioned. Bogwood wont do anything earth shattering for you, but it would probably be enough to lower your pH down into the 7 range.

As for the CO2 option, from my initial research into the planted tank forum, most people claim that adding CO2 can really only benefit the plants there so long as you keep the amount around 30ppm. As far as DIY setups go, a lot of people seem to use them and so long as you get decent equipment it should be easily possible.

I'd also like to remind you to always make sure when you test for pH that you also test for ammonia. Ammonia will raise your pH a lot and that could have been what you saw happen in your sample. I know from my personal experience, while my tank was cycling and the ammonia was very high (4-6ppm) my pH was also very high at about 8.2+. However, since my ammonia levels have come down my pH has also come back down to around 7.8 and my tapwater like yours is extremely hard with an 8.0pH. I actually have even higher tap GH, KH, and PO4 than you do (no NO3 for me though). I use no bogwood, no CO2, no peatmoss, no fertilizers, and no chemicals. The only thing in there are a few Anubias Nana plants and 1.8WPG. Bottom line I guess, even people like us with hard water can make it work.

All that said, have you considered running a Chiclid tank? You could totally pull it off with a tank of that size and they actually prefer really hard water with high pH... Might be perfect for you.

Good luck with your decision

 

[kathleen]

Thanks SkiFletch.

I had a large piece of bogwood soaking in a bucket for about 10 days so I decided to test the water there as well (larger sample and lots of tannins). The pH was 8.0 on the nose so the wood does seem to work somewhat (down from 8.6+). I haven't bothered to test the tank water pH which is currently cycling since the ammonia (4-5 ppm) interferes with the results. I would love it if the bogwood would be the easy answer but with weekly water changes I doubt it will be effective enough. I have now added the wood to the tank so when the cycling is finished hopefully my pH will be lower.

Can I ask which fish you have and if you've had any problems with any due to your water? To be honest I am not interested in cichlids. I really don't mean any offense to these fish or anyone who has them, I just don't have any interest in them. The purpose of this I guess is to keep fish that you find appealing and if I can't do that I'll probably find this hobby more of a chore than anything

I still have some reading up to do on the whole CO2 deal. Initially I decided to stay clear of it for now until I at least had some experience keeping easy, less demanding plants.

Any thoughts on the Brita filter? I understand it would be similar to having carbon in the tank which is a no-no for plants. It has obviously removed some of the hardness from my well water.
BTW does water temp affect test results? ie. cold from the fridge

 

[SkiFletch]

I actually dont have any fish in there yet, still cycling . Temperature may or may not affect the results as temperature can have all sorts of impacts on the solutes and gasses dissolved in the water. I dont know quite enough about chemistry to comment upon whether it would increase or decrease the pH in your situation though. Also, if the sample was exposed to the air in yoru fridge it could have easily gotten some airborne waste in it which would add some ammonia if it wasn't covered.

In the past I've kept fish under similar conditions with the same tapwater (same tank too). I've successfully kept Swordfish, Platties, Guppies, Neons, Cardinals, Serpae Tetra, Otto's, Cory Cats, Angels, and Zebra Danios with my exceptionally hard/high pH water. All the above with perhaps the exception of Ottos, angels and Neons/Cardinals could probably do well in your tank once its cycled even with an 8.0 pH. The big key with pH is to prevent big swings. Many fish can tolerate pH's outside thier natural range provided its a stable pH. Keeping those other fish requires a very mature tank regardless of pH, just some food for thought.

As far as a Brita filter goes, I dont know. I've never tried using one so I couldnt really comment.

 

[Bloo]

Do you live somewhere south of London by any chance and have Thames Water as a supplier

My tapwater stats are as follows :

GH - 17 to 19
KH - 11 to 12
PO4 - 2 to 3 ppm
NO3 - 30 ppm
pH - 7.6 - 8.4

My tap water does vary though, but those are the variations in readings I've obtained over time. So worse than yours really. But the good news is that the fish don't mind it that much really. If you add some bogwood, give it a few weeks and I'm sure your pH will drop down to 7.6 or so. I have however had difficulty keeping Rams and Neons in that water so have given up on them. Just about every other community fish (readily available in shops) do fine in the water though. Just acclimatise them slowly at home.

To be honest, if I was you and you're not set on having a high light planted tank - I wouldn't bother with CO2.
It did reduce the pH in my thank with CO2 significantly (down to 6.9 at the moment) but the good thing is that with your kH it's quite easy to maintain (if you chose to). DIY CO2 is relatively "easy" but a pain to maintain and remember to change the yeast/sugar mix every 10 days or so.

Not sure about the Brita filter thing, but honestly - even if it was fine - it's not worht the hassle or fuss. Your water isn't that bad.

What kind of fish do you want to keep now ?

Oh and whatever you do: stay away from pH adjusters - more trouble (and money!) than they are worth. A higher but stable pH is far better than a swining / fluctuating lower pH.

Well now that I am on my way and about a week into fishless cycling I decided to familiarize myself with my test kit (Master Test Kit by Hagen). I started with testing my tap water and was immediately discouraged.
The results are as follows:

GH - 240 ppm (13.5 dH)
KH - 190 ppm (10.7 dH)
PO4 - 0.5 ppm
NO3 - 5 ppm
pH - 8.0

Yes, this is what I have seen referred to as 'liquid rock'. I knew my water (well water) was pretty hard but never realized the pH would be so high. After letting a water sample sit out overnight I retested the pH and it was at least 8.6 (this is the limit of the test). My understanding was that the outgasing of CO2 used by municiple water systems would cause the pH to rise however we have well water and no CO2 is added so I'm wondering what else would cause the rise in pH.

I have investigated various ways to reduce pH levels including chemicals, filtration through peat, addition of bogwood, CO2 injection and the use of R/O or distilled water. I am not considering using chemicals at all. With the hardness of my water I understand that lowering pH with peat or bogwood would not work so well plus I'm not sure if I'd like the effect on the water colour. R/O water is not an option at this point due to cost of course.
So that leaves me with CO2 injection. Fine, but I decided before I started that I was going the low light route. I have a 50g tank with 90W (triple T8 fixture) so that's less than 2 WPG. If I inject CO2 will I run into problems with this low light level? Does CO2 injection significantly lower pH and is it stable once it's lowered? How would I handle the fluctuations during water changes? Is a DIY setup reliable? Sorry for all the questions but I need to get this settled otherwise I'm not sure if this whole thing is worth my while. I would be satisfied with a pH of 8 but as I am most interested in a community type tank (no breeding) somewhere in the 7's would be ideal.
If anyone has any suggestions or advice I would be grateful. Thanks.

eta - just put a call in to my LPS and the pH of their water is about 7.6 and they of course recommended a pH adjuster.

Out of curiosity I tested the water from my Brita filter in the fridge. The GH was 90-100 ppm, KH was 130 ppm and the pH was 7.6. Would this water not be OK to use?

 

[kathleen]

Thanks guys. Actually bloozoo2 I'm in Eastern Canada (PEI).

Well having to change the yeast/sugar mix that often doesn't seem that economical either. Since both of you have harder water than I do and have had some success with the bogwood reducing the pH down to acceptable levels I think that is the best place to start for now. The wood looks nice in the tank anyway. So after the pH comes down in the tank due to the bogwood what about water changes? This would cause a swing in the pH which is to be avoided. Hmm, I think I'm driving myself nuts here.

The Brita filter has a tight fitting lid so I doubt anything got in it. I'm going to do some more searching on that.

I guess I am most interested in keeping fish like angels, tetras, otos, gouramis, corys, guppies etc. Just the usual community types that do well together in combination with some plants. The selection here isn't great but good enough for me at the moment.

Thanks again.

Just another quick thought. If boiling the tap water would reduce the hardness a bit would this help the bogwood be more effective? I see I've got lots of experimenting & testing ahead of me.

 

[SkiFletch]

Well, boiling wont do a lot unless you distill the evaporated water vapor... And that is a pain in the rear .

As far as water changes go, you should be fine if you do frequent smaller changes like 10-20% once a week. If you think about it hypothetically and your tap has a pH of 8.0 and lets say the bogwood keeps your tank pH down to 7.6... If you did a 10% water change with tap by by volume, by my calculations you'd only raise the tank pH to a mere 7.68. And if you did a 20% change, you'd raise it to a mere 7.76 neither of which is a significant pH swing.

In your case just make sure you very very slowly and deliberately acclimate your new fish to the new tank and you should do just fine. Start with the hardier of your choices and build up to the more difficult to care for ottos/angels last.