Tank without a Filter, how does it cycle? and Fish

[jive_bunny]

Hi Guys,

So recently - 3 weeks ago I decided to buy two small 8 gallon tanks so I could try and breed Dwarf Gourami's and Honey Gourami's. (I have never kept these particular species of Gourami before) I think I may have gone about this the wrong way and didn’t buy filters for these two tanks as being so small I thought I could get away with water changes twice a week. So all was in the tank was new heaters and plants which I took from my mature tank hoping this would have enough bacteria on), No substrate or air pump. All I added to the tank was dechlorinator seeing as I didnt have a filter. Temp in tank 80.1 and PH 7.6

After three weeks of changing water etc I tested the stats. The ammonia and nitrite were showing as 0.1 and nitrate as 40, which I thought, was probably correct seeing as I didn’t have a filter (I have always used a filter before to start the tank cycling and a few hardy fish). With these stats in mind I went out and brought a pair of Dwarf Gourami’s and 4 honeys - Honeys in one tank and dwarfs in the other. All seemed fine although have to admit the honeys were very docile, just seemed to float about a lot but if you touched them they would fly half way round the tank.

So I woke up this morning and oh dear, 2 honeys dead at the bottom. Other two again very docile - just floating however 1 was gasping. Again touch them and they fly about the tank. tested water stats again this morning and increase in nitrite to 0.25, all others remain the same. Dwarf Gourami's no problems at all, however again the male seemed to be gasping a little. I then thought perhaps this was oxygen related even though I had oxygenating plants in there but I added an air pump.

After watching for a while I thought I would move the honeys to the other tank with the air stone and dwarfs hoping that the newly acquired honeys didn’t have a disease and would infect my dwarfs. Well 2 hours later I think I am loosing another honey.

I am therefore mystified to the problem at hand, could it be:

1. I actually needed a filter to properly cycle a tank? If so, should I then have only had a tank without a filter if I managed to breed the fish with just the fry in and remove the parents? Will a sponge filter work, as it’s only a small tank?

2. Were the deaths oxygen related?

3. Was there something wrong with the fish I brought (There were the only 4 fish left in the tank at the LFS).

4. Have I messed up the cycle somehow? Should I have still added hardy fish even though there was no filter? I have never attempted “The fishless cycle before”

Sorry this is so long but would appreciate anyone’s views. Many thanks in advance.

Add

 

[Angel Lady]

I wish I knew what to tell you. I have never put any fish in tanks before without filters. Baby fry is all and I had a airstone then. I would think by the way you described it sounds to me like they are something wrong. Disease mabey. I know this post isnt much help but mabey it will bump it up enough for someone to notice.. I hope every thing works out ok and you dont lose anymore fish..

 

[daddyfish]

Hi Guys,

I am therefore mystified to the problem at hand, could it be:

1. I actually needed a filter to properly cycle a tank? If so, should I then have only had a tank without a filter if I managed to breed the fish with just the fry in and remove the parents? Will a sponge filter work, as it’s only a small tank?

2. Were the deaths oxygen related?

3. Was there something wrong with the fish I brought (There were the only 4 fish left in the tank at the LFS).

4. Have I messed up the cycle somehow? Should I have still added hardy fish even though there was no filter? I have never attempted “The fishless cycle before”

Sorry this is so long but would appreciate anyone’s views. Many thanks in advance.

Add

[snapback]870881[/snapback]​

My main Concern is that your main Problem being that you have/had to many fish in SUCH "SMALL" TANKS.
And fairly Good Sized Ones at that...

These tanks are fine at keeping "MAYBE" one fish in as a Rescue Tank.
But then Only With at least an Airstone, and there should at least be a Box Filter in there for at least some Minimal filteration At Best. Since there is Little Room for much else.

I would think that the Cycling Stats with or without A filter should all be the Same, No matter What.
But I haven't Kept Fish WITHOUT FILTRATION since My first Goldfish I had when I was 6.
So I can't really tell you.
I believe that Your Fish are Suffering from "NEW TANK" Syndrome and won't get any better Unless they are Put into better Conditions.
This is Just My Opion, and I maybe all Wrong, But I don't Believe I am...
try Putting Your Others in A Cycled Tank With: Filtration etc etc etc. If you have one with any Compatiable Fish,
And I'll bet you Dollars to Donuts they Will Come Out of it.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU... And i Hope Your Remaining Fish Will Be OK...

 

[dwarfgourami]

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Dwarf gouramis (and probably honeys too) are quite sensitive to poor water conditions, so need to be in a decently sized tank with filtration.

Also, they should only go in an already cycled tank, ideally a mature tank (ie one that has already sustained fish for several months).

You seem to be under the impression that you have done a fishless cycle. Did you actually add ammonia over a period of time, and test the readings, before adding the fish? If not, chances are the tank was not cycled.

Adding a few plants from another tank will not be enough to cycle the tank; it has to be done either with some serious cloning (filter matter etc- as most bacteria live in the filter) or with hardy fish or with ammonia (the latter being known as the fishless cycle).

Betta tanks are usually not fishlessly cycled but kept without the tank ever cycling (but frequent water changes). Though they are labyrinth fish, gouramis are not bettas, but need to be treated more like ordinary fish.

Hi Guys,

I am therefore mystified to the problem at hand, could it be:

1.  I actually needed a filter to properly cycle a tank?  If so, should I then have only had a tank without a filter if I managed to breed the fish with just the fry in and remove the parents?  Will a sponge filter work, as it’s only a small tank?

2.  Were the deaths oxygen related?

3.  Was there something wrong with the fish I brought (There were the only 4 fish left in the tank at the LFS).

4.  Have I messed up the cycle somehow?  Should I have still added hardy fish even though there was no filter?  I have never attempted “The fishless cycle before”

Sorry this is so long but would appreciate anyone’s views.  Many thanks in advance.

Add

[snapback]870881[/snapback]​

My main Concern is that your main Problem being that you have/had to many fish in SUCH "SMALL" TANKS.
And fairly Good Sized Ones at that...

These tanks are fine at keeping "MAYBE" one fish in as a Rescue Tank.
But then Only With at least an Airstone, and there should at least be a Box Filter in there for at least some Minimal filteration At Best. Since there is Little Room for much else.

I would think that the Cycling Stats with or without A filter should all be the Same, No matter What.
But I haven't Kept Fish WITHOUT FILTRATION since My first Goldfish I had when I was 6.
So I can't really tell you.
I believe that Your Fish are Suffering from "NEW TANK" Syndrome and won't get any better Unless they are Put into better Conditions.
This is Just My Opion, and I maybe all Wrong, But I don't Believe I am...
try Putting Your Others in A Cycled Tank With: Filtration etc etc etc. If you have one with any Compatiable Fish,
And I'll bet you Dollars to Donuts they Will Come Out of it.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU... And i Hope Your Remaining Fish Will Be OK...

[snapback]897396[/snapback]​

 

[Bloo]

I'm sorry buy you will never have a cycled tank without a filter
Very very little bacteria resides in the substrate and you need filter media for them to reside in. I strongly suggest you invest in a small filter.

 

[Durbkat]

You can get a sponge filter which is cheap or you can get a whisper power filter which is only about $20. But I have cycled a tank with no filtration, no airstone, and no live plants. It was a 1g cat shaped bowl. And of corse the nirtites were alittle high and the lps said they didn't know why since there were no fish to pollute it. So I put a betta in thier. But that was about 4 or 6 months ago! And the fish is very, very healthy! So like I said put a sponge filter in or like that other person said put them in a established tank until your is established and you can speed the porcess up by getting really cheap feeder fish or guppies. Or a fishless way to do it is to put stress zyme in. That worked for me in my long 20g when the nitrites were high and it was a new tank with a opaline gouami in it. I put stress zyme in thiet and that brought the nirtites down within a few days! So good luck!

 

[azn1stknightsoul]

Well you can put the stress zyme in which the previous post was talking about. Personally, I perfer the little bags with the bacteria in them. The name has escaped me, but it was bio something like bio spora or bio sphere. Anyways, if you decide to get the bacteria bag, then you gotta make sure to refrigerate it in order to keep the remaining bacteria ready for future tanks and not dead.

 

[Bloo]

The bottom line is, if you are going to do 100% water changes, you are never going to have a cycled tank. And if you have nitrites, it's not cycled. And if you have a 1 gallon you'll be doing 100% water changes. And it will never by cycled that's just the way the ammonia cycle works

Bio Spira is probably the only thing that notably helps with the instant cycling of a tank - apart from cloning a tank.

 

[IMCL85]

If you put in an air pump thats possible alone with gravel in ur tank. The benefit bateria will grow on the gravel. But with out filter water quality will be very bad that make maintain hard as well. Since each time u vacum gravel u loss alot of bacteria that live on the gravel for long run a sponge filter for that tank is needed.

 

[rdd1952]

The Stress Zyme that was mentioned is pretty much useless. I bought it by accident once (meant to get Stress Coat) so I tried it on a new tank and it didn't do any thing. Still took 3 weeks for a fishless cycle which I have found to be about the norm from the tanks I have cycled.

Bottom line is that you will need a filter unless you do daily water changes and that may be too much stress on the fish. Since you had the fish 3 weeks before you ran into porblems, I'd say there wasn't a problems with the fish being sick or diseased when you bought them. They would have died much sooner if that had been the case. I think it was probably just a matter of too much exposure to the ammonia and nitrite.

You didn't mention what your ammonia level was but since you have nitrite in an unfiltered tank, some ammonia is being transformed to nitrite. I would imagine your ammonia level is very high. Also, ammonia will be more toxic in your water as ammonia toxicity increases as pH goes up. Ammonia levels of .25 at pH of 6.2 is much less dangerous than .25 with a pH of 7.6.