Tail Up, Head Down

[Andie]

I've lost my two "teeny" guys (same length as Big Guy, but much daintier) and now Big Guy has got this . . . tilt to him. He can swim horizontally, but when he rests, he slowly drifts to an angle of about 45 degrees with his head pointing downward. It doesn't look like swim bladder (at least, not the way sb looks in an older fish) so I'm a little frustrated and worried about him. Temps are steady, doing regular water changes . . . is it just a case of feeding too much, or should I be looking at any other factors as well?

 

[Joby]

Awww am so sorry to hear this. I had this happen to my spawn and was losing 2-4 fry per day for 4 weeks! Started at a week old and have no idea why it happened but they all showed the same signs as yours

 

[Luke_e]

http/www.millibug.co.uk/articles/frydefects.html

 

[Mr.September15]

I think it's a defect as he said. Sorry ...

-Arrowhead

 

[Andie]

Luke, thank you for the link, but none of those defects describe what is happening. While the 'tipping' is close, it's not accurate; he swims normally, it's only while at rest that he acquires that angle. What's more, the 'tip' is reversed from what they describe.

Joby, I remember reading that you had problems with this as well, actually. It would be interesting to compare our water specs and fish and see if there are any similarities . . . did you feed processed foods? It's what he's on right now, and I wonder if I shouldn't try to feed him frozen instead for a bit.

Water changes are frequent enough (one third of five gallons every two/three days for one fish) that I can't imagine ammonia is a factor (it's at 0 anyway) and I don't imagine it can be inbreeding because although his parents were spawn siblings, their parents were completely unrelated, so I'm just stumped. I can't help but think it must be diet related, so I might try some chopped up frozen bloodworm. He didn't like it the last time I put it in for them, but he might just have to learn to like it! I'm running out of options!

 

[Joby]

Joby, I remember reading that you had problems with this as well, actually. It would be interesting to compare our water specs and fish and see if there are any similarities . . . did you feed processed foods? It's what he's on right now, and I wonder if I shouldn't try to feed him frozen instead for a bit.

Ammonia and nitrite were 0 nitrate barely registering but it was a cycled box filter in with them and live plants. They were on microworms as always from day 3 at least twice a day or when there weren't any on the bottom wriggling and then BBS once a day after I think 3 days as well. Water changes were 50% once a day and temp had crept up to 82 but was supposed to be at 80.

There were approx 150 fry in an 8 gallon tank so maybe they were just too overcrowded but at a week old I wasn't too worried about that and had planned to move them at 4 weeks but I moved them to a 25 gallon grow-out tank anyway at 4 weeks old and also dipped the temp to 79 but was still losing 2-4 per day. Then suddenly a week later the deaths stopped so I'm not quite sure what it was. The only thing I can think of is that I spawned with an indian almond leaf which leaches into the water and made it quite yellow. During water changes this obviously got diluted and maybe the change was too much for the fry. On moving to the grow-out I started to add blackwater extract and floated a couple of leaves in the tank as well.

I now have 89 13 week old healthy juvies to show for it which eat granules in the morning and then defrosted bloodworm/artemia in the evening. I just hope you can maybe work out what went wrong with yours to prevent it happening again

 

[Andie]

Thanks for the info . . . hmm . . . maybe I could put in some BWE with my one guy left. It might be too much for him to handle, but right now it doesn't look like it could do him any worse.

 

[Andie]

Well, I added BWE and went to class. He can now rest horizontally on the tank bottom, but apparently only by 'panting' excessively; maybe to keep air balanced inside of him? At first I thought he was chewing, but he just didn't stop, and I realised he was exchanging water rapdily through his gills/mouth. I have no idea whether this means he's learning to cope with it, or he's fading . . . I didn't have as clear a view of the other two when they went, so I'm really stumped.

He's such a little trooper I hate to see him going through this, but I really want him to make it . . . if it IS a wonky kind of swim bladder problem, it would make sense that the processed foods are affecting him, wouldn't it? I can't seem to chop bloodworms up small enough, though, and nowhere around here has anything smaller than that for him to eat . . . I could try to harvest some more planaria, I guess, if there's any big enough for him, but otherwise I'm rather at a loss.

ETA: I cut off the top half of a styrofoam cup and put baby in the bottom with a little water because I want him to be able to get to the surface to breathe very easily. He doesn't like it in there! Zipping around, trying to get out . . . he doesn't get that it's for his own good

 

[redbetta]

Awww Andie, us Maritimes are just having the most horrible luck ever. I really hope this guy makes it for you! Hopefully the new guys are doing well for you

 

[Andie]

Yeah, the new guys are gorgeous. Gobbling down everything I put in with them and flirting with the ladies left right and centre. The girls aren't exactly holding back, either, so we're on the verge of an orgy here

I had such high hopes for this little guy, though, this is really making me upset I've lowered the water level in the tank and released him back into it, and he's hanging on with grim determination. He's all pearly and iridescent now, and if he didn't look so unlike himself I'd think he was just the prettiest thing I'd ever seen

 

[redbetta]

aww that's so sad I hope he makes it, if not you did everything you could and I bet he tried his best for you too, sounds like he is

 

[wuvmybetta]

is it just a case of feeding too much

What do you feed them and how much? And how old are they now?

 

[Andie]

Big Guy is six weeks old today (Monday). They started out on planaria, but at four/five weeks they graduated to a supplemental feeding of crushed pellets (Big Guy was big enough to eat the pellet granules at three and a half/four weeks, but because the smaller pair always looked so dainty to me I kept putting in the planaria for them to hunt down right up until they died, though I do know that Little Guy, at least, snacked off the pellets too).

They most recently got fed (and BG still gets fed) twice a day; I crush up a pellet and put in a portion of the grains and let him free feed off of it for a while, then I use the turkey baster to suction around the feeding area and get out any granules he hasn't eaten. I wish I had a more accurate way of saying how much he consumes in a day, but since I just dump what he doesn't I can't be sure

I've tried to chop up bloodworms a few times now, first for all three of them, and now for BG, but they just don't seem interested in them, so maybe I haven't made it small enough?

ETA: Could it be maybe caused by parasites? Something that came in with the microworms? Just occurred to me that the problem started after I tried the microworms . . . it's reaching, I know, but I wish I knew what caused it.

edited again to add: I can't see his stomach He's normally got that reddish orange little grain-of-rice tummy, and it's just . . . gone! GACK!

 

[Andie]

He's the most bizarre little fish ever! I went to look in on him a few minutes ago, and I found him on his side, still, and my heart just broke. I was such a wreck, reached in and picked it up, and he bobbed around, barrel rolling and everything, lifeless as you please.

It's likely got a lot to do with how much work I have due tomorrow, but I felt sooo wretched, I just wanted to die. I was carrying him over to the bathroom when . . . I don't know what it was, exactly, but something made me look closer. I had to take him over to the light to get a proper look but sure enough, lying on his side though he was, those little gills were still puffing away. So I put him back in the tank, and he's righted himself again, wobbly enough but right side up for now.

I'm not sure how much longer he's around for, but somehow each hour that he makes it makes me that much prouder of him. Even if he does go eventually, I'm just so thrilled I've had him for the time I have. He's just wunnerful

ETA: I've decided that, short lived or not, he at least deserves a proper name for making it this far. He is now my little Liir

 

[wuvmybetta]

I have no idea,Andie. I hate to say that the diet wasn't as nutritious as it could of been. I'm not exactly sure of the nutritional value of planaria...I'm really at a loss on that one. All of that is baby food for like the first couple of days of life though,they need more from the very first week. They're hungry little guys and if you think about how much they change the first month. Within thirty days they go from being the size of a pinhead to being a fully developed fish with labyrinths and all. At week three I have found that they want to eat and eat and eat, they change so much during that one week alone. So, I would never say it's from overfeeding because I stuff them full of bbs every other hour or so. It's an all you can eat buffet 24/7.

I'm sorry this was so long and heartwrenching for you But it's recommended in every breeding thread everywhere to feed bbs and microworms from the beginning so maybe there's really something to that. It is a lot of work hatching brine, but it's worth the trouble. But, I'm not sure that you didn't as I haven't kept up on every detail.
Some folks use egg yolk and have luck,too. You've really gotta work hard with them for a couple of days to get them on frozen, but once they take it, they're good from there on out.

From where I sit- it seems you were breaking a few of the rules as far as whats typically recommended for the first month of life I don't mean to be harsh, but I feel a bit surprised and at a loss for words,really, that's why I put off replying in here. I don't know what to say except I'm so sorry and try again