swordtail drama continues...

[Kendramc]

I just had another swordtail die. for reference, here are two threads about some of the recent drama i've been having (before this fish):

https://www.fishforums.net/threads/swordtails-keep-dying.487584/page-2#post-4264388
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/good-fish-for-stupidly-hard-water.487625/page-2#post-4264319

if you don't want to bother reading them, here's a summary. for the past many months, about once a month i have had a swordtail get skinny and lethargic and then about a week after i notice this they die. water conditions don't seem to be a concern, and the tank has been up and running long enough to be cycled. my bristlenose plecos have been fine, and everything in my tank has come from the same store. i finally ended up treating with API general cure after the last death about 2 weeks ago, since internal parasites seemed the most likely problem.

now this morning i find another dead swordtail. this one i never noticed get skinny or acting odd. no idea if this is the same problem or something else. the fish can't been much more than a year old, so old age shouldn't be the problem.

tank info: 30 gal, lightly planted with java ferns. now down to 2 swordtails and 2 bristlenose plecos. parameters: Nitrite = 0, nitrate = 0, pH = 7.5, GH >180, KH >240 as per API test strips.

my best guesses right now are that either the general cure didn't treat the problem, parasites aren't the problem but rather there is a genetic issue with these fish, or just simply bad luck.

doing a large water change today. hopefully my last two swordtails either hurry up and die (just so i'm over it) or stay healthy for a few months until i'm ready to decide what to restock with.

anyone have any input or questions worth considering?

 

[CherryBerry670]

I have no clue what that is. Best guess is a genetic problem, since that exact same thing kills a lot of my PetSmart fish. Maybe try aquarium salt and methylene blue in a separate hospital tank, but it really seems more like a genetic problem if you’ve managed to keep them this long.

Consider getting another swordtail from a different pet store after those two die and see if he does as well. If he dies, it probably is indeed a tank problem. If not, it’s a simple genetic problem and you should stop buying from whatever pet store you got the others from.

And also, just out of curiosity- was anything else besides swordtails and plecos in the tank? It might be some kind of stress problem.

 

[Kendramc]

And also, just out of curiosity- was anything else besides swordtails and plecos in the tank? It might be some kind of stress problem.

it is just those 4 fish now. i've had up to i think 8 or 10 swordtails at one point, but they just kept dying. overpopulation doesn't seem like the problem

Consider getting another swordtail from a different pet store after those two die and see if he does as well

i'm thinking i'm just going to try something else. not sure what yet, but we are looking into getting an RO system, so i can have softer water and thus more reasonable options.

 

[Sgooosh]

it is just those 4 fish now. i've had up to i think 8 or 10 swordtails at one point, but they just kept dying. overpopulation doesn't seem like the problem


i'm thinking i'm just going to try something else. not sure what yet, but we are looking into getting an RO system, so i can have softer water and thus more reasonable options.

swordtails need harder water to live well so I don't think getting softer water would help
do you have any photos?

 

[Colin_T]

It's unlikely to be a genetic issue if the fish grew to adulthood.

The GH of the water is unlikely to be an issue if it hasn't killed bristlenose catfish.

If the fish are losing weight over a week and dying, and they don't eat as much during that time, it is most likely an internal protozoan infection and Metronidazole is the recommended treatment. You need to treat the tank every day or every second day for 1-2 weeks (1 week is normally sufficient). It works best in a bare tank so the medication can treat the fish and is not wasted on the gunk in filters and gravel. You can also feed it to the fish 3 times a day for 1-2 weeks. Feeding the medication to the fish is generally better. Just mix some of the medication with some frozen fish food and feed the fish as much as they can eat 3 times a day.

If you treat the tank, do a huge water change and gravel clean the substrate before treating and re-treating. Clean the inside of the glass and the filter too before treating. Increase aeration when using medications or salt.

 

[Kendramc]

swordtails need harder water to live well so I don't think getting softer water would help
do you have any photos?

No decent photos, but this one looked normal yesterday.

And the softer water is so I can do something other than swordtails. I'm giving up on them for now.

 

[Kendramc]

Metronidazole is the recommended treatment

API general cure contains metronidazole, but is a two-dose treatment. I used it as per the directions. Is this not what I should have done?

 

[gilpi]

I would not focus so much on your parameters and meds, just do frequent water changes.

 

[Colin_T]

API general cure contains metronidazole, but is a two-dose treatment. I used it as per the directions. Is this not what I should have done?

I have no idea what API recommends for treating fish with metronidazole but in my experience, feeding it to the fish 3 times a day for 1 week works best. If you are adding it to the tank, treat every day or every second day for 1-2 weeks and make sure you don't have carbon in the filter.

 

[kiko]

hmm, I don't know how many times I've said this but...
----> big water changes kill fish <----
unless you're matching water temperature from tap to buckets to the tank with a thermometer
50% is a fish killer...I've had countless discussions over this in this forum
and at the end of the day the simple fact is that nobody does it...
and the whole "finger feel" test doesn't work and you are killing your fish
your water at 7.5 ph is on the harder side but then again...they need harder water...
stop putting chemicals into your tank like meds A,B or C
and stop changing the water....
grab a tds pen...grab some water from tap and put it in a cup and let it sit to room temp and measure the tds
if the pen measures lets say...250..thats your value from tap
measure your tank and it should be around the same...a bit higher...whenever it reaches 300...that's when you change the water
regardless if this takes 1 week or 2 or 5...when it does change 20%
follow these steps and you'll be fine
if you do want to make softer water so get around the 7.1 mark..you can use bottled distilled water
from 7.5 to 7.1 would be 19:1 ratio...19 cups from tap...1 cup of distilled...
or you could simply grab a bucket that can hold 5.8 gallons which is 20% of your water change
fill it up...divide the height in 20 lines...so when you do need to make a water change
19 lines of tap...1 line of distilled
people have this notion that water changes have to be done regularly...----> they don't...
people are advised to do so because it's easier/cheaper to tell someone to change 20% of their water than to tell them to grab a tds and measure their water
I'll give you a simple example..fish poop...plants absorb some of that..filter takes some...the cycle takes care of some
now let's say you worked in a restaurant with an alley and everyday pigeons pooped on the alley...
you step out for a smoke today..and its full of crap everywhere...you're still going to have that smoke while making sure you don't step on it right?
a week later...there's 10 times the poop...heck..the road is starting to look like there was a pigeon war in there....
same thing...you have your smoke....5 weeks later...you can't even step out without pulling some circus moves not to step on it
so you get fed up and the city isn't doing anything you grab a hose because you see it as your personal chilling spot for your smoke breaks and just hose it down...
guess what? an aquarium works exactly the same way...but you have an advantage in an aquarium vs the alley...
it's called a poop counter...or "tds meter" once your fish pooped enough...you basically go in and flush the toilet xD

 

[Colin_T]

Big water changes do not harm fish unless you don't do regular water changes. If you leave a tank for a month between water changes, then a big water change can harm fish because the water chemistry (pH, GH & KH) in the aquarium can change significantly during that time. The pH and KH can drop and if you use water with a higher pH, the fish can die from alkalosis. But if you do regular water changes (once a week or once a fortnight, weekly is better because you just do them every Saturday or Sunday or whenever) then the water chemistry in the aquarium does not change that much. If it does change drastically during the course of a week, you need to reduce the number of fish in the tank and the amount of food going into the tank.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to an aquarium containing livestock.

I did 75-90% water changes on all my tanks every week for decades and never had a problem. If you lose fish after a water change, then you are either adding chlorinated water, or you are using water that is significantly different to the aquarium water, or something else is going on.

Having said all this, the problem with the fish is an internal disease, most likely an internal protozoan infection and has very little if anything to do with water quality. However, cleaning the tank up before medicating always helps because it allows the medication to work more effectively, and a clean environment allows the creatures living there to heal quicker.

 

[kiko]

hmm my last one was 2 months
the difference in water chemistry would be affected because of things in the water...being fish waste..food...etc...
all these contribute to a higher tds and hence a water change
fish die more commonly to shock during big water changes than alkalosis/acidosis
and yes while doing a regular water change might be beneficial for keeping the same water chemistry
a big water change more often than not is the leading cause of fish killings as I'm yet to see someone temperature matching their water
unless they were a breeder with an automatic water dispenser at a certain temperature which regulates the cold and hot water to it reaches that specific temperature
nobody does it...and finger feel is not a thermometer
you're better off doing 5 water changes at 10% than a 50% which would cause a bigger change in water..being in water particles and temperature
now...his fish are dying right? this is the 3rd thread for the same issue...
I think it's time for a change in music...

 

[gilpi]

Big water changes kill fish, wow. Swordtails are dying in his tank and water conditions are "not a concern"? Tank maintenance is priority. A water change may not cure the problem, but problems occur from lack of water changes and poor maintenance.

 

[kiko]

yes they do..even with experienced fish keepers the most common cause being shock..
water conditions being a priority for who? for sure not the fish...people do it this often because they want pristine clear water
he's been doing 50% water changes adding meds and more 50% changes
then more 50% changes because of people mentioning he needs more!
what he needs is to simply leave the tank alone...its that simple...
don't look at it..don't touch it...setup a bucket for 20% with the lines as I've mentioned before...
do top offs whenever the tank loses about 5% water
and do tds based water changes..he's got a planted tank so regular water changes to clean out poop aren't as important as if it was a non planted tank
I think he tried different suggested methods and his fish keep dying..about time he tries something different
if he's opened a 3rd thread means the previous suggestions aren't working for him
my method works whether people agree with it or not
so...
1. setup bucket for 20% water changes at 7.1ish from his source using distilled water using a 19 to 1 ratio...19tap / 1distilled
2. measure tap water with tds pen (the bucket water used for the water change not the tap itself)
3. measure tank water with tds pen
4. if water measured from tank is higher than 50 tds from tap...do water change
5. keep up with topoffs about twice a week if possible using the same premix so the water added is always the same
as for big water changes and the whole discussion about it...I'm sure I've had them with different people in this forum
which led into other conversations about heating and more sensitive plecos L46 which I also keep or discus...
all in all...a weekly 20% change would work...a tds based water change would work...
but I would never recommend anybody do a 50% water change for no reason unless an accident happened like a bottle drop regardless if A, B or C person did it for 50 years
that person could've done it for 50 years and do it properly...doesn't mean others will
PS: has anyone asked how he did his 50% water changes?!? because I didn't see it anywhere...or was just assumed he did it right?
as a reference point...
---> bigger water changes should be placed in buckets hotter than the water from the tank...let it cool down to the same temp as the water in the tank and then add it <---

 

[gilpi]

So I agree and disagree in many ways. Nowhere in this thread I have read about his water changes or tank maintenance habits but Im assuming this is probably a long going issue for this guy or gal.
I agree that at some point yes, you need to step back and as you mentioned, not sure how the 50% water changes were done or how often and yes, big change in temp is obviously detrimental to the fish.
What I disagree on... nothing wrong with a 50% water change weekly or by-weekly more or less depending on the bio-load, feeding habits etc. the word here is "depending" and of course, again that is assuming is done correctly.
Big disagreement on loading the tank with chemicals, meds, salt etc. not only can it easily overwhelm filtration but at the end of the day probably not beneficial for the fish.
Also, there is no need to be a chemist to have a fish tank, this is where many newcomers fail, they get overwhelmed with too much information on water parameters and many times not the right information though it wouldn't hurt to know basic principles which are very simple and not often mentioned on how to keep your tank's water in optimal condition (no, not for me or to keep the water pristine clear but for the fish) and that simply requires fresh clean water through frequent water changes to avoid going back to the beginning of this thread.