Stocking - numbers, again

[Beastije]

Hi guys, before going to the shop tomorrow I want to check here. I have a 54l tank (not netto) and currently have 3 neolamprologus multifasciatus, that are unlikely to breed anymore and will be living the rest of their lives here (they are around 3 years now).
They needed a dither because they were shy and used to it from previous tank, so I bought 8 ember tetras.
I was thinking about buying a few more but don't want to be overstocked.
I do a weekly water change and the sponge is 10x20 cm (even though the filter is at the lowest flow).
Can I get like 5 more tetras? I assume they will appreciate the numbers and I don't want to keep them on the minimal one.
What do you think? I never had more than 15 fish in this tank before.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

What are the 54l tank dimensions and can we assume that it's properly cycled?

Anyone would also need pH, temperature and hardness readings, before any sensible stocking suggestions can be made.

I do know that your cichlid species will remain very territorial throughout their lives and so you'd want nothing that would impinge the area just above your substrate.

 

[Beastije]

Hi, the tank is 60x30x30 cm, pH Is 7.4, it has been running since 2014 but I did change the substrate in August, but half from existing tank and the filter was running the whole time.
The multies are nice though, they are only territorial if the tetra comes very near the shell. But they swim up near the surface with them and hang out with them in the stream if they are not in their shells. Very mellow fish, never attacked other species that I noticed.

These 8 tetras were added three weeks ago, so I can still wait with adding more, if I even can add more

 

[Beastije]

Oh and temp is 25 degrees.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Okay.
To be honest, I'm not comfortable with your choice of dither fish, because your cichlids need a pH of 7.7 to 8 or even 9, whilst the tetra need a pH of 5.5 up to a max. of 7.5.
Your pH of 7.4 is too low for the cichlids to be comfortable.
Without the cichlids, your tank could easily hold 30 Ember Tetra.

 

[Essjay]

And the cichlids need hard water while the tetras need soft water. The hardness of the tank water hasn't been mentioned yet, though.

 

[Beastije]

The ph is borderline for both species. Sure the multies are no longer spawning cause they could use a harder water with higher ph. But they have been living in it past three years.
there are two calcite stones and the snail shells that could raise the hardness but then there are plants that reduce it right back. I tried adding bicarbona, was no use. Am smack right in the middle leaning towards the softer side, nothing to be done about that, just wait their end.
Will wait with more tetra when the multies are gone.

Btw what dither fish would you go with? I didn't want rasbora's btw

 

[Myraan]

Given that you say the shellies are only there for retirement at this point, maybe it would be useful to let us know what your gH is and what vague ideas you have for tank after the shell dwellers pass.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

The ph is borderline for both species.

No, it isn't. That water is way too acidic for multies.

Sure the multies are no longer spawning cause they could use a harder water with higher ph. But they have been living in it past three years.

So you've written them off after only 3 years. These fish can live between 5 and 7 years...in the right conditions.

 

[Beastije]

So you've written them off after only 3 years. These fish can live between 5 and 7 years...in the right conditions.

I have had them for 10 years overall. These are my fry. Born in this water. They are not bought or wild caught. They could do better, sure, no argument there.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I have had them for 10 years overall. These are my fry. Born in this water. They are not bought or wild caught. They could do better, sure, no argument there.

So these fish are 10 years old? Outstanding...if true.
It would be interesting to compare and contrast fish brought up within the water conditions that they're genetically hard-wired to thrive in and those brought up in softer Czech waters.

 

[Byron]

What is the GH? You cannot expect useful advice when we do not have the facts. The pH is borderline, yes, but the GH is what really matters.

In post #7 mention is made of bicarbonate, but this is not helping anything as it is a temporary buffering for pH. The GH is the measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium in water, and this is crucial for all fish. The shellies need this mineral and the Ember do not, to put it simply.

 

[Beastije]

Well this is some fry from the initial 12 I had. Had dozens, 50 over the years I think. Now I have three. According to the water provider, my entry water is 6,73°dH GH.

i could move the embers to one of my other tanks and try again to rise the ph and hardness in this tank to give them more comfortable life again.
the other tank just reached 6,4 ph due to wood and plants and water change. But the entry water really should be 7,9 ph

Will check later if I have a test for gh.

so again, what dither would you use? They can't be alone, they were super shy and stressed

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

...so again, what dither would you use? They can't be alone, they were super shy and stressed

Endler guppies.

 

[Byron]

Well this is some fry from the initial 12 I had. Had dozens, 50 over the years I think. Now I have three. According to the water provider, my entry water is 6,73°dH GH.

i could move the embers to one of my other tanks and try again to rise the ph and hardness in this tank to give them more comfortable life again.
the other tank just reached 6,4 ph due to wood and plants and water change. But the entry water really should be 7,9 ph

Will check later if I have a test for gh.

so again, what dither would you use? They can't be alone, they were super shy and stressed

If these numbers are accurate, the water is much too soft for shellies. I don't care if "x" number survived, all I can say is that they are not in the best condition and that should be the issue resolved before any thought is given to adding more fish. I will explain if I can.

Each species of freshwater fish has evolved to function in a very specific environment. This includes water parameters, the GH and pH particularly; temperature is also critical, but that can easily be controlled. Water is cont5inually entering the fish via osmosis through the cells; this is how fish "drink." Most substances dissolved in the water are able to diffuse across the cell membranes with the water, thus entering the fish's bloodstream and internal organs. Fish that live in hard water need calcium (especially) and magnesium in the water because their physiology depends upon these minerals in order to operate. Fish that live in soft water do not need these minerals. Their physiology is designed to remove the calcium and other "toxins" from the blood, using their kidneys; when the water is too hard, the calcium removed will block the kidneys, eventually causing death. So the GH is critical to all fish. Many species are very specific when it comes to the GH, while others have something of a range provided it is not too extreme.

The pH is tied to the GH and KH. In hard water the pH will naturally be higher (more basic, above 7), while in soft water the pH will tend to be more acidic (below 7). This is over simplified, but it gets the idea across. So if you want more basic (higher) pH, the way to achieve it is to increase the GH. This is easier to do than the opposite (softening/lowering pH). Calcareous substrates (like the rift lake cichlid sands now available) and/or rift lake cichlid salts (these are not common salt but the salts of minerals like calcium and magnesium).

But if you harden the water, the Ember Tetras which re1quire softer water will begin to have problems just "living" because of their physiology. There really is no middle ground when one has two very opposite requirements. You need to decide which, and proceed to select fish suited to the water.