Still No Nitrates?

[dalios]

Hi all,
 
I am about 6weeks into my cycle now doing a fish-in cycle with 4mollies 2platies all healthy and active at the moment using the tetra safestart which is the bacteria in a bottle.
 
Tank is 180L temp 26c running the internal juwel filter and also an external canister filter.
 
Been doing regular tests each week and water changes once-twice a week water is crystal clear.
 
Using the api test kit that is in date results now - ammonia 0.25-0.50 nitrite 0 nitrate 0 ph around 7.5
 
Dont know why i am still not seeing nitrates? even after a water change and testing the next day the tests show exactly the same. I know the api kit works when i first tryed it ammonia was at zero now it is up slightly.
 
Altho the nitrate test shows the liquid will be yellow at 0 then changes orange when nitrates show the yellow is getting darker and darker the more i test but not going orange as yet.
 
Any idea why i am still not getting nitrates or any advice on what i can do to get it going?
 
Thanks
 
Note: I think the safestart didnt work as it should of as i am trying to kick start 2 new filters as the external is quite big also, but i did put in more than stated then used the rest of the bottle 2weeks later.

 

[Fishmanic]

one possibility is that you're not shaking bottle two of the test kit long and hard enough---knock the bottle against a table or your hand and shake shake and shake it some more.  Then do the test and report back.

 

[dalios]

Hmm possibly it does say shake for a 1min which i do time it and always shake it a bit longer and shake it like a mad man lol, but will give it another try shortly see what it reads and report back

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You are being surprised by the wrong numbers. At six weeks if you have followed the directions on the bottle you should have been able to cycle close to 3 tanks.
 
I am a bigger fan of the parent product of Safe Start, DrTim's One and Only. Only he and Tetra use the specific bacteria they do which makes them superior products. terta did modify things a bit but still uses the same bacteria. I know that with the One and Only you can cycled a tank in about a week for a full fish load using ammonia. If you add the [proper dose and cycle with fish it should not take much longer.
 
The other thing I know is that Tetra wants folks not to use an ammonia detoxifier of any kind. There is a good Q and A thread on another site between a member and a Tetra rep you should read. The policies of this site have links to this information as an unpermitted link. The potential ignorance of this policy makes it impossible to post vital information for our members to whom we recommend. If anbody would like the link to this thread please shoot me a pM and I will send it to you. (Sorry admins, but this information is too important for it not to be available to folks using this product.).
 

 
In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.

 
My bet is you are using prime or a similar product that detoxifies ammonia. The above is basically telling you do not use Safe Start if you have declored water with a product that detoxifies ammonia right before or for a week after adding SafeStart.
 
In cycling, be it fish in or fishless, water changes are not your friend. The difference is that with fish in you may have no choice while in fishless you can let ammonia get higher. Using a proper bacteria starter should work to minimize or eliminate the need for water changes in the vast majority of cases. It will control ammonia and nitrite. When one does this one will see nitrate when water changes would work to eliminate it.
 
Since I can get Dr Tim's if i need to use a bottled product, I do not bother with Safe Start and have not seen what is says on the bottle or any accompanying directions.I could not find the information from that post anywhere on the Tetra Site. But I sure hope buyers of the product are able to find them some place.

 

[dalios]

Hi two tank i did think this myself i should be cycled by now i did read up on the safestart before i purchased it and read only good things and how it works i know some wont agree.
 
Yes i have the same thread on the safestart i got it off here and followed as it said on there not to do any water changes for at least 2weeks after adding safestart unless ammonia gets up high and it also said can dose again after 2weeks i believe if your not seeing the results you want which i did again.
 
I have put nothing in my water other than the safestart and tetra aquasafe to make water safe for fish which it also says on the thread is fine to do. I have not used anything at all that detoxifies ammonia locks it etc safestart and aquasafe and fish flakes are the only things that have entered my water.
 
Here is the thread i followed that i got from this site-
 
 
Hi there,

Wow, lots of questions! All are pretty simple, and we get them a lot too. I'll suggest marketing address them on our website, next time they update it. Out of curiosity, what forum is it?

So...where to begin? First, ideally you should set up the tank, and let it run at least 24 hours, then, shortly before you head off to the store for your first fish, add TSS to the tank. Within two hours, you should
add the fish. Our normal recommendation is to add one small fish per ten gallons of water. However, you CAN fully stock the tank, you just need to keep a close eye on it, and be sure to not complicate  matters by overfeeding as well. We recommend this method for African cichlid tanks since it is best to fully stock such a tank from the beginning due to territorial issues. For a novice fish-keeper, we'd recommend the one small fish per ten gallons rule for the first two weeks. Within two weeks, TSS should have fully cycled the tank and they can start slowly adding more fish, one at a time.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.
 
If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 PPM ammonia may harm some of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7 days.

Best temperature for TSS is between 40 and 80 degrees. Freezing and extreme heat will destroy it. Refrigeration is okay, but not necessary. You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the fish.

We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has done something wrong the first time, in such cases.
 
Nope, bacteria should not affect the pH.

Hmmm....be sure the levels are not already toxic, shake the container thoroughly, be sure to add the right dosage, do not use an ammonia detoxifying product, and be patient. It won't give you zero readings in an hour, like some folks think. By the way, carbon does not affect it but uv lights do...we get those questions too. And just an interesting point...the large aquariums, such as the Georgia Aquarium, and the Shedd Aquarium, as well as huge research labs in this country and other countries, also use TSS as well as the saltwater version Bio Spira.

If I have not addressed all of your questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Tetra Care

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well there is one other potential explanation. Both Safe Start and One and Only need to be kept above freezing and below 37 and better 35 C or they will be killed. Even if tetra did its part and you did yours, it is possible the product along the way was not so carefully treated.
 
However, when I look into Aqua Safe it neutralizes chloramine. Chloramine is a combination of chlorine and ammonia. When this bond is broken be using a dechlorinator, the result is the ammonia part remains. This is why many dechlors also contain and ammonia detoxifier. In an established tank the amount of ammonia is usually handled by the bacteria in fairly short order. However, in a cycling tank which is working to establish bacteria, the ammonia is just piled on top of what is already there. Do you know if your water company uses chlormines? This could explain why you see persistent low levels of ammonia.
 
Too bad you have an "about" reading for your pH, an accurate reading would help. But if I assume that your 7.5 is the level and your tank temp. is under 26.6C, then an ammonia reading of 2 ppm should be tolerated by your fish for a while. They should be able to handle 1 ppm for even longer and at .5 ppm it considered fish safe. Why, because its almost all about NH3.
 
Finally, the way the cycle works is ammonia gets to and stays at 0 before nitrite does so. Your numbers are backwards in terms of this. Given your tank and what you have reported I would also suggest one of your readings might be off. Given that 1 ppm of ammonia can create 2.55 ppm of nitrite and that there should be a mix of the AOB and NOB in Safe Start such that a tank will process whatever nitrite the ammonia bacs can produce, I think maybe your ammonia test is the one giving a false reading.

 

[dalios]

Well there is one other potential explanation. Both Safe Start and One and Only need to be kept above freezing and below 37 and better 35 C or they will be killed. Even if tetra did its part and you did yours, it is possible the product along the way was not so carefully treated.
 
However, when I look into Aqua Safe it neutralizes chloramine. Chloramine is a combination of chlorine and ammonia. When this bond is broken be using a dechlorinator, the result is the ammonia part remains. This is why many dechlors also contain and ammonia detoxifier. In an established tank the amount of ammonia is usually handled by the bacteria in fairly short order. However, in a cycling tank which is working to establish bacteria, the ammonia is just piled on top of what is already there. Do you know if your water company uses chlormines? This could explain why you see persistent low levels of ammonia.
 
Too bad you have an "about" reading for your pH, an accurate reading would help. But if I assume that your 7.5 is the level and your tank temp. is under 26.6C, then an ammonia reading of 2 ppm should be tolerated by your fish for a while. They should be able to handle 1 ppm for even longer and at .5 ppm it considered fish safe. Why, because its almost all about NH3.
 
Finally, the way the cycle works is ammonia gets to and stays at 0 before nitrite does so. Your numbers are backwards in terms of this. Given your tank and what you have reported I would also suggest one of your readings might be off. Given that 1 ppm of ammonia can create 2.55 ppm of nitrite and that there should be a mix of the AOB and NOB in Safe Start such that a tank will process whatever nitrite the ammonia bacs can produce, I think maybe your ammonia test is the one giving a false reading.

Hmm not to sure then dont know if my water company has chlormines in it.
 
On the ph chart it comes at 7.6 which is the highest it goes when i do the high range ph it comes at 7.4 so just averaging it at 7.5.
 
My temp is always at 25.9-26.0c never changes around that mark.
 
Ammonia has never gone above 0.50ppm nitrates have always been at 0 and nitrites 0 altho as i said before the yellow on the nitrates is getting darker than it was at first, before a pale yellow now a dark yellow but not enough to indicate nitrates.
 
Maybe the ammonia test is giving a false reading? it does not seem to change at all go up or down so you maybe right.
 
Where should i go from here twotank? shall i just keep on waiting till i see nitrates on a test or can i add more fish like 1-2 a week?
 
Itching to get more fish in there lol