Starting From Scratch - Ideas For Stocking Please

[MartinL]

Well, I have been reading this forum for what seems like 24 hours a day since I joined, and now I think it is just about time for my first post.
First of all - my current situation... I used to have a few goldfish in a tank a few years ago, but after they all died off within a few days of each other(!) the tank was mothballed in the garage until I moved house a few months ago and decided to dig it out. On a whim I thought I would try tropical fish, not realising what I was getting myself into!
Being a complete noob, I started stocking the tank before it was ready - I know, I know, I should have done some research, but bought the fish on minimal knowledge and on what the kids wanted. So... I have a 29 US gallon tank, (about 100 litres) that is at day 21 of cycling with fish (thanks goes to Miss Wiggle for her wonderful article BTW). Levels are: ammonia dropping to about 1ppm, nitrites rising to about 2-5ppm, but no nitrates yet, and I and doing a 20 litre change daily to keep the nitrite levels down. PH is about 6.8. Filter is an internal fluval (can't remember the model but it has 2 sponges).
This has 2 Featherfin Cats about 2.5 inch long at the moment and a shoal of 10 neon tetras (was 11, but one disappeared overnight!). Also has 2 live plants - an amazon sword and another unknown one.

Anyway, in addition to this I have just had an early xmas present - a 60 Gallon (230 Litre) tank (40x17/18x20) as I already realise that the 29 gallon is too small. This is standing empty as I intend to do all the research I can before I start and will do a fishless cycle - I bought the ammonia from Boots today. But I have a few questions that I hope you can help with.

Q1. I have an external filter that came with the tank, but not sure on which media to put in it? It has 3 trays. I know there are different sorts of media, charcoal, ceramic rings, sponge, wool etc, but what does what and which order should they go in?

Q2. I intend to wait till the 29g tank has cycled before I start the larger tank, but what would be the best way of using the cycled tank to kick-start the new one's fishless cycle? I thought about taking one of the 2 sponge pads from the old one and putting it in the new tank - or would a good squeeze of the water out of it be enough?

Q3. The biggie... I have been going around in circles with the choice of fish to put in. I would like to put one or both of my featherfins in, but not sure if the neons would be a good choice to go with them. I also like Dwarf Gourami - thought of getting either 2M or 1M&2F. Like Angelfish too and Guppies (I don't want to breed them, so would get 4 or 5 Male guppies), but I know the Angelfish would eat the neons - would they take guppies? Would like another medium sized 4-6 inch fish or two to go with them, or a shoal of others that the angelfish would leave (bigger tetras perhaps). Any suggestions? Would a siamese fighter be too aggressive?
I will still be keeping the 29g, so perhaps neons & guppies in there?

Q4. Shrimps. Would they last with the other fish?

I hope that you will be able to help!

 

[scolby]

1-in my filter I just use the filter pads (small medium or large) the come with packets of media that you empty inside of the pad, and then another cartridge that holds a charcoal and ammonia neutralizing crystal mix

2-the filter pad is a good trick, when the pad is completely used, you can put it into the new tank's filter for a few days. another method is when you do a water change on your cycled tank, put the water (that you took out) into the new tank. Don't do water changes on the new tank little while, just to get the bacteria going. Once the ammonia starts going up or the water gets dirty, then start doing the water changes. Another option is to just buy some live bacteria from your local fish store, they usually have refrigerated packets of it behind the counter.

3 and 4- Im not too sure on the fish compatibility subject but alot of websites of chain petstores have compatibiliy charts. Petco.com has one.

Hope I was a help

 

[dcarmor927]

Well, I have been reading this forum for what seems like 24 hours a day since I joined, and now I think it is just about time for my first post.
First of all - my current situation... I used to have a few goldfish in a tank a few years ago, but after they all died off within a few days of each other(!) the tank was mothballed in the garage until I moved house a few months ago and decided to dig it out. On a whim I thought I would try tropical fish, not realising what I was getting myself into!
Being a complete noob, I started stocking the tank before it was ready - I know, I know, I should have done some research, but bought the fish on minimal knowledge and on what the kids wanted. So... I have a 29 US gallon tank, (about 100 litres) that is at day 21 of cycling with fish (thanks goes to Miss Wiggle for her wonderful article BTW). Levels are: ammonia dropping to about 1ppm, nitrites rising to about 2-5ppm, but no nitrates yet, and I and doing a 20 litre change daily to keep the nitrite levels down. PH is about 6.8. Filter is an internal fluval (can't remember the model but it has 2 sponges).
This has 2 Featherfin Cats about 2.5 inch long at the moment and a shoal of 10 neon tetras (was 11, but one disappeared overnight!). Also has 2 live plants - an amazon sword and another unknown one.

Anyway, in addition to this I have just had an early xmas present - a 60 Gallon (230 Litre) tank (40x17/18x20) as I already realise that the 29 gallon is too small. This is standing empty as I intend to do all the research I can before I start and will do a fishless cycle - I bought the ammonia from Boots today. But I have a few questions that I hope you can help with.

Q1. I have an external filter that came with the tank, but not sure on which media to put in it? It has 3 trays. I know there are different sorts of media, charcoal, ceramic rings, sponge, wool etc, but what does what and which order should they go in?

Q2. I intend to wait till the 29g tank has cycled before I start the larger tank, but what would be the best way of using the cycled tank to kick-start the new one's fishless cycle? I thought about taking one of the 2 sponge pads from the old one and putting it in the new tank - or would a good squeeze of the water out of it be enough?

Q3. The biggie... I have been going around in circles with the choice of fish to put in. I would like to put one or both of my featherfins in, but not sure if the neons would be a good choice to go with them. I also like Dwarf Gourami - thought of getting either 2M or 1M&2F. Like Angelfish too and Guppies (I don't want to breed them, so would get 4 or 5 Male guppies), but I know the Angelfish would eat the neons - would they take guppies? Would like another medium sized 4-6 inch fish or two to go with them, or a shoal of others that the angelfish would leave (bigger tetras perhaps). Any suggestions? Would a siamese fighter be too aggressive?
I will still be keeping the 29g, so perhaps neons & guppies in there?

Q4. Shrimps. Would they last with the other fish?

I hope that you will be able to help!

welcome! first of all, you have a lot of fish for a fish in cycle, im currently doing that with a 55 gallon tank and i have 9 fish, i dont want to tell you to re home the fish, but your ammonia and nitrites are very high, ammonia above .25 ppm is very bad, and nitrates above 1 can be too, just not as bad as ammonia, i recommend doing a large water change in the morning, then again at night until you can get those stats down...now for your questions:
1) your filter didnt come with the media? my filter has two sponges, and two filter cartridges, the sponge filtering the water second...other than that i cant help you with the rest...

2) don't squeeze the sponge, the bacteria that break down ammonia and nitrites live in here and need to be kept wet...if you put the mature media into the new filter for the larger tank you can help jump start the process...you should only take one of the pads if any because then your already cycled tank could crash. I think i would just do the fishless cycle without media transference to keep it simple...

3) not too sure about the compatibilities of these fish, i've heard neons will nip fins of angels, so maybe that should be considered. if you got a siamese fighter it would kill anything bright in the tank, or attempt to, so i would rule that out...dont know about the guppies tho...

4) not sure, but im interested in this too, good luck

 

[OldMan47]

It is time for several large water changes Martin. A 20L change in a 29 gallon is a small water change. I would do at least 2 50% changes maybe an hour apart and then check tank chemistry. You need to get both the ammonia and nitrite (that's with an I) readings below 0.25 ppm. At this stage of your fish in cycle, don't worry about nitrates because the water changes need for ammonia and nitrites will more than take care of it. When both the ammonia and nitrites start taking care of themselves and stay at zero detectable, you can say that you are close or may even have arrived at a cycled condition.
If your filter starts to become plugged up to where it is reducing water flows, there is no reason not to clean it by rinsing the media in used tank water. Having the water flow through a filter stop or almost stop is not a good situation to be in. You need the flow for your filter to do its trick removing the ammonia and nitrites.
It is best not to use the crystals that say they remove ammonia and nitrites. These things do work but here is the down side. When you slightly overload a bacterial colony, it will grow to take care of the new levels of waste production. When you exhaust the crystals, they stop working and you get a giant chemical spike. The problem is that you can't see it coming because they work right up until they can't any more and just suddenly stop. If you have effectively removed all of the ammonia in the water through the "crystals", you have set yourself up to have way too few bacteria to deal with the ammonia. When the crystals stop working all of a sudden, the bacteria are not present in anywhere near large enough numbers to do you or your fish any good.
Cloning a cycled filter can be done but I would not try it immediately after you say your older tank is cycled. The most effective way to clone a filter is to move about 1/3 of the media to the new filter and leave it there for a period of time, say a couple of weeks at least. I use several of the same brand filter so I move a piece of mature media and replace it with the media I got with my new filter. I never put it back because I don't need to. Both filters end up with a full set of media. Once you have cloned a filter, don't forget to prove it is cycled before adding fish. I will put ammonia in the tank and measure the next day. If there is no ammonia and nitrite at that point I feel pretty safe putting some fish into the new tank but sometimes I find that the filter needs to finish cycling before it is really ready. It usually only takes a very few days to go from almost to fully ready.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, completely agree with OM47.. I would read his post carefully!

The most urgent thing is that you have somehow missed the essentials of the Fish-In Cycling process and need to do the immediate water changes that he advises and then keep following up with a percentage/frequency of water changes that always keeps ammonia and nitrite(NO2) between zero and 0.25ppm!

~~waterdrop~~
ps. all your other things will get worked out in time and you'll be in a good position to do them

 

[tennis4you]

The next question is, what are you doing to keep the sword alive? I took up planted tanks and wow, it is sweet but it is a huge pain!

 

[waterdrop]

The next question is, what are you doing to keep the sword alive? I took up planted tanks and wow, it is sweet but it is a huge pain!

Yes, in my opinion, learning about plant keeping and algae is indeed harder than learning the basics of fish keeping but usually we focus on the fish first when beginners still have all the skill set of both yet to learn. I'll bet a "plant tab" and some liquid ferts would at least give the sword a fighting chance in the meantime.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Truck]

shrimps will be ok with peaceful fish. ive kept them with rams and cockatoos and had no problems. if there being bullied theyll hide all the time

 

[loachman]

For the filter media, each component has a different function and optimal location in the filter.

The wool/sponges take out particulates from the water. Solid fish waste, uneaten food, plant debris, etc. This should be the first thing the water passes through. This ensures that the later filter media don't become clogged. It's good until it looks like it'll fall apart or does (which is usually a couple months depending on the type).

Ceramic rings (or pieces) are substrates for beneficial bacteria to grow on. They can come next. They are useful for removal of dissolved waste products, predominately ammonia and nitrIte. Some bacteria will also grow on the filter floss/wool/etc. but the ceramic rings are specifically for it. It's good until it falls apart (can be years).

The carbon should be the last thing the water passes through before leaving the filter. It removes other types of dissolved chemicals. "Activated carbon" (which is basically specially made charcoal with lots of micro-pores) adsorbs chemicals from the water. Primarily it will remove tannins (that brown color given off by new driftwood) or medications from the water. You can leave it out for now if you want. Despite what some believe, it will not "dump" all the adsorbed chemicals after time. It has a short-ish lifetime (highly useful for a couple days, then will fade).

There are also ammonia removal media. It's a crutch and should only be used if your ammonia levels are very high. It should be placed near the discharge end of the filter, like carbon would be placed. It will slow down cycling, which is generally bad, but it does make the water less toxic in the meantime. You can read all about cycling on the stickies at the top of the forums if you want.

Depending on your stocking levels, it's a good idea to take the media out and rinse them in old tank water each month or so. You'll usually notice a reduced flow from the output when it's time. The main reason is to keep good flow rate, and to remove some of the decaying matter that clogs the floss/wool to keep nitrAte down.

 

[MartinL]

Thanks for the replies so far. I am following the advice from OldMan47and did 2 50% changes today - Ammonia had already dropped to .25 before the change, and Nitrite is also down now (after the change), and at last nitrate is going up. I cleaned the filters too - didn't want to do this really as I read it might hold back the cycling? but there was a lot of gunge in them so it was probably a good idea. I think my original 20l change estimate was a bit low - I am measuring it by the bucket, and it looks like it was more like a 30 l daily change.

Anyway... back to my original Q3 - fish stocking for the new 60gallon tank... going off angelfish now as they seem to limit the other fish I would like to keep in with them -or at least keep alive in with them! I am now edging towards Guppies, Tetras - neons and perhaps black neons or silver dollar, with my 2 featherfin cats and also gouramis. Not sure if shrimps would last with the cats though. Does anyone have any comments about this stocking, or suggestions of other fish I have not even thought about? I would really like a colourful community with a couple of eye-catching fish.

Thanks
Martin

 

[aat]

If you want something colourful and lively for the tank Rainbow fish are great. I wouldn't go for guppies, like Angels they'll limit the choice of fish you'll be able to get, ruling out a lot of Barbs etc. (Odessa barbs would be great also btw)