Spike in Nitrates and Water not clearing

[lynhagan]

HI.

I've posted before and received good advice so I'm confident the problem can be solved. I have a Betta fish that is recovering well from a case of Fine rot he got about a few months ago. I have a Fluval Flex 32l filled to about 28/30l and was feeling able to start planting. I asked the seller Aqua Essentials if I needed to quarantine the plants and he said no. My son noticed a few snails and the seller said this shouldn't be a problem.

I do once weekly 30% water changes and started to notice that the gravel cleaning with a mini Python was getting loads and loads of muck up - such a vast increase. I tested the nitrates and they have gone from under 5 to 20 last week and now 40 this week. They don't seem to go down with water changes and the tank water just doesn't look clean.

I think there are two options - either the filter isn't working properly (it pumps water out but the water doesn't look clean at all) or there might be something dead in the aquarium? There may be many other options of course to those who know but this is what I thought. I had put some activated carbon in from the tank that I had taken out to put catappa leaves in - would this be a problem? I have removed it just in case.

What should I do? I can change the filter (and think I should as the water flow is not great anyway) but I think it takes time to transfer. Can I put in a new filter now if I add Stability for 7 days? Should I take the filter out and do small water changes every day?

Any other advice greatly appreciated - I don't want the little fella to get sick again.

 

[Colin_T]

Check the tap water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate

Check the aquarium water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

Nitrate test kits read nitrite as nitrate and can give you a false reading if there is nitrite in the water.

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How often do you do water changes and how much water do you change?

How often do you feed the fish and how much do you feed it?
What do you feed it?

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Do Not change the filter or filter media/ materials.

What sort of filter is in the tank?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

 

[Byron]

I'll add a couple more questions to Colin's above.

Is this betta the only fish in the tank (I'm assuming so, but this matters)?

You now have plants, can you post a photo of the entire tank so we can see which and how many--they too affect all this.

What is the substrate, is it inert or for plants?

 

[lynhagan]

Thank you both - I'll do all this tomorrow in good light. Worried ...

 

[lynhagan]

• Can't see nitrate in the tap water or the test water, maybe the lightest hint of a colour but maybe just a trick of the eye it is so minimal.
• Nitrates in tap water 0.2
• Nitrates in tank water after a 30-40% change yesterday have dropped from 40 to 20-25 (I use the Seachem drop kit - should have bought the API all in one but bought individual test kits instead through naivete)
• I don't have an ammonia test kit other than the Seachem Alert system which reads Safe.
• I do water changes once a week, 25-20%. If I miss by a day or two, I do more, never more than 50% and that is rare (like when he had an infection)
• I feed him once a day in the morning - he only eats tropical flakes or Dennerle betta food. He used to eat the brine gels but so much was wasted, I was wary of reintroducing them after he got ill.
• I bought the tank second hand and this filter came with it. It is the kit that is designed for it (Fluval Flex 34l) It has a space for biofilter and carbon but when I used Catappa leaves I too the carbon out and never bothered with it again, as I read it's not essential. I have only changed the foam once since I bought him about 6 months ago and did so by cutting it in half and changing half the foam over. How to introduce new filter material without killing old bacteria was the thing I couldn't quite wrap my head around. The filter is rattly but water comes out. I wanted to change it for a sponge filter but when I put in the air pump it didn't work. I've ordered new filter foam and biofilter with carbon now. It is a three chamber compartment - the first one is empty and pulls the water through from the tank, the second has the media and the third has the pump and nozzle. I was thinking it might be possible to seed the new foam in the first compartment?
• I add Stability now with each water change
• I only have a few easy plants and add the nitro and carbon the seller recommended daily
• The substrate is Seachem Flourite.
• The betta was the only thing in the tank until the small snail or snails arrived with the plants
• I'll get my partner to take a photo tonight of the whole tank (I don't have a smartphone) but would appreciate advice now, especially on the filter - if you have time to provide it.
• He is blowing bubbles and eating so hopefully still ok, but after last time, I am concerned something in the filter is

 

[Byron]

OK, I have some suggestions fro this data, thank you.

I add Stability now with each water change

Don't. This is not going to do any good, and the fewer substances added to the water the better (= healthier) the fish, always. I can explain why if asked, but will move on for now.

I only have a few easy plants and add the nitro and carbon the seller recommended daily

Do not add any "carbon" product, this is likely glutaraldehyde based and seriously toxic. And the plants do not need it anyway, natural CO2 from the substrate is sufficient esp for "easy" plants. The photo will help, because depending upon these plants, we might have more to say about cycling and the filter issues.

The substrate is Seachem Flourite.

With no substrate fish this is not a problem, but do not use this in a tank with substrate fish (cories, loaches, small cichlids). It is way too rough, plus it has no real benefit for plants anyway, over inert sand or even fine gravel. But you're OK here.

• Can't see nitrate in the tap water or the test water, maybe the lightest hint of a colour but maybe just a trick of the eye it is so minimal.
• Nitrates in tap water 0.2
• Nitrates in tank water after a 30-40% change yesterday have dropped from 40 to 20-25 (I use the Seachem drop kit - should have bought the API all in one but bought individual test kits instead through naivete)

Did you confuse nitrite and nitrate? I will assume nitrite is zero in tap and tank water, and nitrate is close to 0 [0,2] in tap water and variable 20-40 in tank water. If my assumptioons are correct, you need to do more significant wzater changes. Provided the parameters (being GH, pH and temperature only) are basically the same between tap and tank water, you cannot do any harm with more water changing. Do 50% of the tank to get nitrates down as close to zero as possible. At 20+ they are far too high. Clean the substrate at the W/C, and the filter. I'll likely have more on this when I see the photo.

 

[h99]

Just want to add some info here, if you are at UK, there's a chance the nitrate is high enough from the tap water. For myself, the drop kit measure ~10ppm (living at london area). Pretty sure it is not the problem of tap / faucets as I got similar measure even at my neighbour and also the water at a shop tap water nearby...

Running out of solution i have to buy some conditioner to clear the nitrate before using it into my tank

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Lets start with some science here.

1. If you are not introducing nitrite (from your tap or chemicals you are adding) the only way to get nitrite is from the cycle.

2. Stability is a bottle of spores and the nitrifying bacteria do not form dspores, they reproduce by division. A properly cycled tank has n need to add anything bacterial regularly. My bet is your cloudiness is caused in whle or in part by adding that.

3. While Byron is not a fan of Excel, I have been using it for decades in my planted tanks with no issues. I do not overdose it and only add it with weekly water changes, So he and I disagree on this completely. And yes I do know what gluteraldahyde is and does. I also know this product has been around and in use for a lot of years. If it was harming fish when used properly, there would be a ton of posts all over the net and on social media about this. It is all about concentration. We all need to breath oxygen, However, if we breath pure oxygen it will harm you. So is O good or bad? The answer is depending upon the concentration it can be either. Normally, there is 21% in the air we breath.

4. Dechlorinators do not detox Nitrate and elevated Nitrite can be blocked from entering fish by chloride if the need arises- that basically means adding a bit of salt to the water.

5. Some problems can arrive with new live plants. I have bleach dipped most new plants before putting them into tanks. However, not all plants can handle this. Also bleach doesn't do much for snail eggs.

6. Your water changes are lowering nitrate pretty much as expected. There is no reason not to change 50% or more of the water in a tank weekly. But consider this. One day you had no tank and no fish. When you set up and cyled the tank it was with almost 100% new water and then in went the fish, Did it die? Did it jump out? And it wont do this with a huge water change as long as the new water has similar parameters to to the old. Of course the nasty stuff a water change removes and the good stuff it adds back should not bother fish but makes its life better. The parameters that need to be similar are GH, KH, pH and temp.

7. It is normally better to plant a tank at the outset and then to allow the plants to settle in rather than to add them at the end (unless one started with fake and decide to go to live). Because the plant use ammonia (as ammonium), but do not produce nitrite or nitrate in the water, they mitigate how much nitrifying bacteria is needed in any given tank.

I hope the above helps some.

 

[lynhagan]

Thanks, everyone for your replies.
Below are some photos of the set up which is my first one.
Its been a disaster so far with plants so I asked a box of easy starter plants from Aqua Essentials and they sent Rotala Orange Juice, Bacopa amplexicaulis, Limnophila heterophylla, Ludwigia Palustris Green, Lilaeopsis novea-zealandia and Cryptocoryne petchii. I got some Water Spangles but they did not do well at all, just went brown and became trapped behind the Betta Log and rotted so I got rid of them. The seller was adamant I needed to buy both fertiliser and liquid carbon and said this is why the previous plants died.

Details:

Neutro Combo - Low Tech is an ALL IN ONE kit for the Low Tech (non CO2) aquarium. You make a little saving too!!

Neutro T is a liquid aquarium plant fertiliser which provides all the necessary trace elements including iron for your low tech planted aquarium. Low tech means aquariums which are not using pressurised CO2. The ingredients in Neutro T are special. They work quickly and effectively when dosed as recommended. Your plants will show the benefits of this product and reward you in no time.

Dosage: This product needs to be dosed daily so that your plants have a steady stream of nutrients. There's little point in dumping a weeks worth of fertilisers in one go. Simply add 5ml per 100L every day. It doesn't matter what time of the day you dose, as long as it's every 24 hours.

However, regardless of what type of planted aquarium you have, we recommend using Neutro CO2 which is a liquid carbon supplement (see related products for more information).

Neutro CO2 is a liquid source of carbon for the planted aquarium.

For those of you not familiar with it, carbon is essential for all healthy plant growth and can be provided via gas, or liquid. The liquid form is less potent than gas but still very effective. It won't make your plants pearl (this is when you see O2 bubbles coming from the plant) but it will help them grow. Plants that have access to liquid carbon will do far better than those without.

What happens when plants don't have access to carbon?

Tap water has zero carbon in it so if you're not adding any to the water you can safely assume you have no carbon at all. So if you're not dosing it, plants will not photosynthesize as they should. As a result, they stop growing (or show stunted growth) and can't compete with algae for nutrients and the downward spiral begins. If this carbon deficiency continues, plants inadvertently (out of their control) release sugars and other nutrients which attract algae and it's these sugars and nutrients they so desperately need, but just can't hang onto.

It's a bit like vomiting (sounds gross but true). Without carbon, plants lose energy, nutrients, health and well-being. Their colours disappear. The end result? Algae everywhere.

So you can see why it's actually very important to dose carbon and why we recommend that all plants receive a daily dose because, without it, they will always struggle.

So the sooner you dose liquid carbon the better.
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Regarding the dirt of the water, I bought a new filter a while ago (it is the dual sponge filter with a softer flow) and asked Colin_T how to introduce it and he suggested it needs two months to seed completely. I've cleaned the gravel today and not getting anyway near as much dirt and debris from the gravel so I'll test the nitrates again tomorrow.

Can I move the biological filter over from the Fluval filter to the compartment on this filter and transition to it sooner or should I do it a different way - at least I can see if this one is working, the motor on the other one is untrustworthy and I've had problems with it.

Might continue doing 30% water changes every day or two, as long as it doesn't cause harm?
Regarding stability, I guess I just wasted money

Lyn

 

[Slaphppy7]

Not only was the Stability a waste of $, but so are the ferts, which are also potentially (probably) harmful to the fish

Good advice from Colin and Byron above...the only chemical you should ever add to your tank is water conditioner

I advise getting the API Freshwater Master test kit ASAP, and using IT to test ammonia, nitrItes, and nitrAtes, and post those results here

Moving filter media between different filters is fine

 

[TwoTankAmin]

To say ferts are harmful to fish makes no sense to me. In the wild the plants get ferts naturally and without any help from humans. This is basically an ecosystem. A tank is a closed environment and needs things added and removed. In a well planted tank the plants will usually use up things. This may be faster than they are produced by the tank's contents or it may be things not provided by the new water when it is changed.

This would be simple if all water was identical in what it contained and all tanks used the exact same plants with the same fish.

Here is how the worlds largest producers of aquarium plants puts it:

Aquarium plants require nutrients to grow. The main nutrient is CO2, which is also the main inhibitor of growth in the plant aquarium. If you don’t add extra CO2, plants have to do with what is naturally released by fish and bacteria inside the aquarium, which is inadequate for plants of the categories MEDIUM and ADVANCED.

Other than CO2, plants also need nitrogen (N), phosphor (P), iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn). These substances are referred to as macronutrients, since the plants require relatively large amounts. Aquarium plants can absorb all macronutrients both via roots and leaves, which is why the fertiliser can be added as fluent fertiliser to the water or as capsules to the substrate. If you add fertiliser to the water, it requires frequent dosage (daily or weekly) and overfertilisation may result in algae problems, if the plants are unable to absorb the fertiliser as it is added. However, it is the only way to add fertiliser to e. g. moss, floating plants and plants on rocks and tree roots, since their roots aren’t located in the bottom layer. Nutrient capsules are ideal for large and sturdy plants or well-established carpets of front plants. Tropica’s Nutrition Capsules release their nutrients over a period of 6-9 months.

The third nutrient category is micronutrients such as copper, molybdenum, zinc and borate. These substances are part of vital enzymes, and when micronutrients are deficient, plants grow slower and start to show deficiency symptoms. You can add micronutrients both in form of Premium and Specialised Fertiliser and as Nutrition Capsules.

from https://tropica.com/en/guide/make-your-aquarium-a-success/fertiliser-and-co2/

And there is Tom Barr's Estimative Index method. This involved overfertilizing combined with weekly 50% water changes. If this killed fish we would have heard about this all over the net. But we haven't.(Google "Estimative Index" for details)

Here are a few pics of my high tech planted tank with CO2 added and lots of ferts. Does this appear to be killing fish?

Here is a lower light tank which got weekly ferts and Flourish Excel added:

and then this

Boy do plants frets and Excel harms fish.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Artificial ferts used incorrectly can & will harm fish, as will CO2

 

[Byron]

You do not need to add carbon in an established and balanced aquarium. Look at the photos of my tanks below. The only carbons was that produced naturally in the Substrate (primary source) and the respiration of fish, plants and some bacteria. You balance the light accordingly, and if necessary add substrate tab for plants in the substrate that need this (swords always grow better with the tabs), and liquid fertilizer may be needed. The GH of your water also factors in to the fertilizers.

As for fish, these substances do affect them but this can be minimized by using the right additives and not more than needed. Over a period of ten years with 8 planted tanks in my fishroom I "experimented" a bit with fertilizer, and found that some tanks needed it and some did not. I never added any form of carbon. I know the CO2 naturally occurring from decomposition increases during the night period quite considerably. In my 70g tank which housed my group of 60 Corydoras I discovered that the increase of CO2 at night affected them; their respiration was extreme in the early morning. I increased the surface disturbance by the filter, and problem solved. Normal respiration all day and night (I checked night with a flashlight some hours after the lights went out).

As for fertilizers, use a comprehensive supplement which provides the nutrients plants require, and they (the nutrients) are in balance. I am not going to go into this, it is botanical, but it is fact. You are in the UK, so look for the TNC Lite liquid fertilizer, and I think they do substrate tabs as well. Given the plants in your tank, the liquid is better. Aquatic plants take up nutrients via the roots and the leaves, and the liquid fert in the water will naturally circulate through the substrate. But stem plants will grow well floating, not rooted in the substrate, which supports this.

Photos of the 115g 5-foot tank. November 2010, Aug 2010, May 2010, March 2011, a flower on my Frogbit, flower on my Echinodorus major. There was no carbon additive, only natural CO2, balanced with the light and su[pplemented fertilizer. I use Seachem's Flourish Tabs for the swords, and tanks needing liquid, Flourish Comprehensive Supplement. The fish come first, and you select plants that will do well under the light and supplements if needed.