So, a bolivian ram in a community setting?

[rebe]

Mikrogeophagus altispinosus.
I'm under the impression that any cichlid can be a risk in a community set up, but also that these seem to be on the more peaceful end of the spectrum. I would get a single juvenile male, who would be quarantined in a 54L ( 60x30x30 cm) and then moved to a 280L (120x40x60 cm) after a few months. I also want to get some corydoras and a golden ancistrus, but the corys with the other two fish might be pushing it for a 54L quarantine.
My hengels rasboras will also be in the 280L if/when the ram is added. (Trigonostigma hengeli).
Would the bolivian ram bother the corys in "his territory" and maybe outcompete them for food? Is there anything else to be concerned about or to consider?

 

[Beastije]

Hi
I have four (had five) bolivian rams in a 120x50x60 cm with 13 sterbai corydoras ( had those for a year, some year and a half prior to the b-ram), rummynose tetra, ember tetra, otocinclus and now newly pearl gourami.
My b-rams regularly pair up, spawn, guard and I had no loses of any fish ever. They will chase the coryodras away by swimming at it, they never get to the nipping. The biggest predators to the b-ram babies are the other two not paired b-rams that will pick them off. Not the rummynose, not the embers, not the corydoras.
Overall, I think because I have a group of them, they do pay attention to themselves. In normal circumstances there will be a sterbai, who will underswim it and try to eat the pellet the b-ram is currently munching on, and they wont care. They will liplock with the other b-rams if they get too close.
I was worried about the pearl gourami, but they never interact (so far) due to the height of the tank.
My rams have been in the tank since february, so I should have good experience already, the pearl gourami are a new addition though, so that interaction may change

 

[rebe]

@Beastije Wow, thank you for your reply and pictures! I'd written off the possibility of a pair because of potential parental care, being aggressive or defensive towards the other tank members, bottom dwellers especially. Do you think that yours works so well because it is a group of rams and that a pair could be more problematic?

I don't doubt you or your experience at all, but I might see what others have to say too

 

[AJ356]

I had x2 Bolivian Rams in a 300 L (48 inch tank) years back. Fully planted. Highly stocked. Corydoras, ancistrus, glowlight tetra, neon tetra, harlequins, and a golden gourami.

The Rams would joust with each other some times, but never interfered with any other fish, including the bottom dwellers. I don't know what sex mine were. I never saw any indication they were courting.

I'm really happy to the read about @Beastije experiences above, but I'd be a little anxious about my corydoras with more than one Ram (in a case the Rams spawned). I just don't like to see too much aggro in my tanks, even if no one gets harmed, it makes me anxious myself.

And corydoras are in everyone's business, they will be everywhere and I think it would confuse them / stress them potentially, if certain parts of the shop floor were off limits to them

 

[Beastije]

The b-ram spawning is sort of a localized deal. They will lay eggs and guard 5x5cm ring around it, they will hatch wigglers that they move periodically and guard the 5x5 cm ring around it, they have free swimming fry and they guard a 10x5cm ring around it. It usually leaves so much space for the corydoras, who would not venture there anyway, if it were not for food being dropped there. If one is careful about feeding and places, the corydoras do not have the "need" to go to the location, and the relatively small area the bolivian rams guard wont really be missed by the corydoras, who do not even care they were bullied out of that place. Again it is sort of my opinion, but my b-rams spawn every three weeks like clockwork since April, they guard eggs for 2 days, wigglers for 3 days, free swimming fry for 4 or so days before the other b-rams kill them off, so there is a period of over a week where they guard in various places and there is no huddled group of corydoras in another corner of the tank fearing for life in my case

Alas I too am curious about other peoples experience

 

[WhistlingBadger]

I have pondered adding a few Bolivian rams to my 150 gallon tank (it isn't warm enough for regular rams). Interesting info here.

 

[rebe]

Really interesting @Beastije , thank you. Without moving them to a separate tank, would any of the fry grow up or I am correct in thinking that the other tank mates eat them or they just don't survive in general?

I'm quite keen about the idea of a pair

 

[rebe]

@AJ356 I think your concerns are very fair, with puppy-like corys and potentially defensive ram parents.
I have an idea. I could get the pair of bolivians, see how things go. Then if they do spawn and guarding becomes problematic, I could move them to what will be an empty but established 105L. There's always the option of returning them too I suppose!

Although, I'm not sure if it will be possible to get an obviously bonded pair from this LFS. I could pick out a male and a female, but is there a chance that they wouldn't get on if they didn't bond? I wouldn't mind having a pair that didn't couple up, as long as they weren't hostile or territorial towards each other.

 

[AJ356]

@AJ356 I think your concerns are very fair, with puppy-like corys and potentially defensive ram parents.
I have an idea. I could get the pair of bolivians, see how things go. Then if they do spawn and guarding becomes problematic, I could move them to what will be an empty but established 105L. There's always the option of returning them too I suppose!

Although, I'm not sure if it will be possible to get an obviously bonded pair from this LFS. I could pick out a male and a female, but is there a chance that they wouldn't get on if they didn't bond? I wouldn't mind having a pair that didn't couple up, as long as they weren't hostile or territorial towards each other.

I am not sure they are the easiest to sex, not for the novice anyhow. Possibly @Byron or @Ichthys

 

[Ichthys]

Put a pair of Bolivian Rams in 280 litres that’s to their liking and they’ll think you’ve set them free. Add lots of decor like plants, wood, caves, branches, leaves, including plenty of places they can go where you can’t see them, and they’ll be as happy as pigs in… their natural habitat.

For me they are often very difficult to sex especially when young. You have space for half a dozen or so, which usually means both sexes, and they’ll choose their own partners. If you have both sexes you’ll probably get at least one pair. Then they’ll decide what you do with the others.
Will fry grow up? With enough decor for them to live out of sight there’s every chance a few might make it.

 

[Byron]

From my experience this cichlid must select his mate. The easiest to get this is in the store tank, if a male allows a female to be near him, while he is defending "his" space, they probably will mate. I certainly would not put any female in with any male.

My Bolivian Ram was in a 5-foot tank. I added a female. Looking back no with what I know, this was not going to work out, but I wasn't aware of the issues back then. They spawned four times, though their behaviours were certainly odd. After the fourth attempt, the male killed the female. He stayed in his space until death, which for a fish that has 5-6 years, he was into his tenth year so did pretty well.

 

[AJ356]

But how about the risk/reward balance of Bolivian Rams in a 280 L community (heavily planted, quite a bit of wood and rocks). I believe the OP has a large group of Hengeli Rasbora that will be relocated into the 280 L. Possibly Corydoras as well (possibly, I believe, not sure on that). From the other thread I believe OP's water is about 9 degrees hardness with a pH of 7.8 (ish, I think). @Byron @Ichthys

 

[Byron]

But how about the risk/reward balance of Bolivian Rams in a 280 L community (heavily planted, quite a bit of wood and rocks). I believe the OP has a large group of Hengeli Rasbora that will be relocated into the 280 L. Possibly Corydoras as well (possibly, I believe, not sure on that). From the other thread I believe OP's water is about 9 degrees hardness with a pH of 7.8 (ish, I think). @Byron @Ichthys

The habitat is not relevant, it is the tank space. My Bolivian was in a 5-foot (115g) tank, with a couple hundred Cories (around 60) and upper characins. The male ruled this tank, and every fish knew it. The female was just a bad experience.

 

[Ichthys]

Cichlids are individuals and so the best predictions of behaviour are only probabilities. Some of them don’t read the books.
In most cases, a self-matched pair in a large tank will largely keep to their own business and leave non-cichlids alone. A lone cichlid often behaves very differently, ime.

 

[rebe]

Thank you to @Byron @AJ356 and @Ichthys for your posts in this thread. Very useful to hear about your different experiences.

The easiest to get this is in the store tank, if a male allows a female to be near him, while he is defending "his" space, they probably will mate. I certainly would not put any female in with any male.

My Bolivian Ram was in a 5-foot tank. I added a female. Looking back no with what I know, this was not going to work out, but I wasn't aware of the issues back then.

It seems like my best chance for a pair is to observe them in the store tank for a while if I can.
You may have to speculate here Byron, but do you think that the outcome would be different if they had both been introduced to the tank at the same time, if they were not paired but in the same store tank?


So to recap a little bit, and please correct me if I am misunderstanding:
A pair of bolivian rams that are friendly towards each other, should be okay to keep in a 280L planted tank with some small schooling fish, an ancistrus and some corydoras?
(I only own the schooling fish so far, but I'd like to have the other three if I can.)