Smarter fish.

[Lateral Line]

I've never held this "3 second memory lark", if they forgot everything after 3 seconds, why do they flock to the top of the tank when the lid is opened for feeding?

Interesting research here.

 

[Alien Anna]

Huh! I always knew it! Right from the time at University when we had to observe male betta flaring behaviour, using a variety of "decoys" to trick the fish, I suspected they were smarter than anyone knew.

For me, the ultimate proof of this intelligence is the huge range of personalities and behaviours that people on this group observe, even among fish of the same species e.g. our recent discussions on CAEs, discussions on suitable tankmates for bettas and arguments about ideal tank sizes and shoal sizes. Fishkeepers have observed that different fish, even tetras and minnows, seem to have different personalities and that they aren't all from the same fish-shaped cookie cutter. And of course, the more "advanced" the species (bettas and cichlids, for instance) the more flexibility in "personality" there seems to be.

I've had four bettas since I experimented on their behaviour at university and all of them were different from one another. I currently have four mollies, all of whom behave in a slightly different way from one another. If they were simply automata driven by instinct, these variations could not exist.

I suspect people would not want to believe that fish had intelligence because then it would make them feel guilty for the ways they treat fish - from goldfish bowls, to "Aqua Babies", to betta vases, to the horrendous way newbies are sold fish and tank on the same day and not told about cycling and the way many people flush live fish they do not want down the toilet. Perhaps if they realised the fish were aware and suffering they could not sleep nights?

 

[Lateral Line]

>>> not want to believe that fish had intelligence

Very valid point. You see all manner of protection for farm animals raised for meat up to and including humane slaughter, but nobody, (apart from me), ever seems to complain about hauling fish out of the sea and allowing them to slowly die terrified.

 

[Alien Anna]

>>> not want to believe that fish had intelligence

Very valid point. You see all manner of protection for farm animals raised for meat up to and including humane slaughter, but nobody, (apart from me), ever seems to complain about hauling fish out of the sea and allowing them to slowly die terrified.

I'm not a vegetarian but I do believe strongly in humane rearing and slaughter. I don't know if you're at all familiar with the work of Temple Grandin in cattle? A lot of research, effort and technology has gone into developing methods to avoid suffering in mammals, and I'm all in favour of it.

Yet when it comes to fish, we're barbaric! I saw a fish stunner device on TV a while back. I can't remember how it worked but basically it knocked fish out when they got dumped into a hopper on board a fishing boat. It didn't actually kill them, so that fisherman could throw back species they weren't allowed to catch (like cod in the North Sea - it's getting so rare it's almost extinct, you know!? ) but it did mean the fish suffocated while unconscious. However, apparently there is no demand for such a device and many people are loath to believe that fish even feel pain!

Maybe research like you posted will cause there to be a consumer pressure for humane fishing. In the meantime, I'm doing my little bit by boycotting cod (we can still get it because it's imported, but that just means the Pacific and Canadian cod stocks are going to become extinct too), and only eating organic, "Humane farming" salmon. That's how we got freerange eggs to be the norm in UK, rather than factory farmed eggs - consumer pressure.

 

[smb]

I've never held this "3 second memory lark", if they forgot everything after 3 seconds, why do they flock to the top of the tank when the lid is opened for feeding?

Interesting research here.

I agree. I've even heard some "experts" in the past say that dogs forget after 30 minutes.

I can go to work for 8 hours and come home and Sadie still knows her name and still knows my whole routine and doesn't seem to forget anything that she knew before I left.

I also agree with you guys about the mistreatment of fish. I believe commercial fishing shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Morrgan]

Yet when it comes to fish, we're barbaric!

Cruel things are being done by some people who are supposed to be setting some examples to fishkeeping beginners, not just commercial fishers. This reminds me of a time when I went to what back then was my LFS. In one tank they had lots of guppies and one large female swordtail. The female was in very bad shape, dying, and the guppies were attacking her. Basically eating her alive. I told the owner about this and asked him to do something, but he refused. He didn't care about her suffering. I guess he figured that this way he wouldn't need to feed the guppies for a while. Needless to say I switched to another LFS immediately.

As for the memory thing with dogs, keep in mind that there are two kinds of memory: long-term and short-term. Remembering routines is what long-term memory is for, so I guess the 30 minutes refers to the short-term memory.

 

[William]

I've even heard some "experts" in the past say that dogs forget after 30 minutes.

That is utter rubbish, my two dogs were in kennels for 8 months (long story we are not allowed to keep them in our place) got them back now But when we went to pick them up they instantly recognised us jumping at the gate and running round and round in circles.

 

[rosierabbit]

scientists are just 'proving' what all fish keepers know - fish aren't stupid!!

 

[Jaws]

what about all those dogs and cats who make their way home after being separated? as for the 3 second memory thing.. i was just thinking about that this morning as i was trying to get my new black moor to eat from the surface. it really doesnt make any sense that they would have that memory.. my old one just went straight to the top, and i had to submerge some flakes for the baby. lol also i accidentally forgot to take the flash off one time, and accidentally scared the shiz outta my older black moor and for the rest of the day he would run behind his sunken ship everytime he saw me pull out the camera.

-fish feelings- ppl only know as much as the scientists tell them... they dont perform the experiments themselves.. i read this article about this guy sayin fish didnt have the "lobes" or wahtever parts of the brain to feel pain like other mammals etc. there was a seperate article that involved injecting the lips of some fish with bee sting venom, and it concluded that they do feel pain.. so i dno lol i guess you just gotta research and see for yourself.

 

[jerenycool]

we can't stop catching fish. i live in the south and we have a port thats next to out town about 50 miles away and they bragan 100000000 of fish in every day yes i know thats a lot but people have to make a living and we have no short on them.
so i don't think u should bann them

 

[Alien Anna]

I eat fish so it's probably not my place to say it, but saying "People have to make a living" isn't really a justification. A couple of centuries back people were using the same argument to justify the slave trade - all those slave traders out of business (shock, horror). No, all that happens is that slavetraders become coffee traders, and fishermen become tofu manufacturers.

 

[Penguin]

This maybe some proof that fish have a memory longer than 3 seconds.

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yo...ire/3189941.stm

 

[Lateral Line]

That would be the same link that I started the thread with!

>>> people have to make a living

That doesn't work for me either. People who eat meat demand humane treatment and slaughter of their animals, increasingly in an environmentally friendly way.

Trawlers/netters indiscriminantly plunder the seas throwing vast amounts of dead, "non-commercial" fish back, side kills of dolphins and other sea mammals and reptiles, wrecking coral etc., and kill their "prey" by slowly allowing it to suffocate. Doesn't really compare.

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_te...002/1823575.stm

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwal...all/3183209.stm

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-paci...fic/3183921.stm

This is a small sample - fishing as it is at the moment is simply non-viable.