Sickly Ranchus

[angel.star]

It's been a really sad day for me. One of my ranchus developed dropsy (it just seemed to appear from nowhere - I woke up one morning to find the little guy double his normal size) and following advice from my local aquatic store, I placed the little guy in a small tub of tank water and put him in the freezer. I feel so awful about it but I was told that was the most humane way to put a fish down, and he would have been suffering terribly if I'd left him.

I have another ranchu which I bought from the same tank at the same time at the same store eight months ago. He has always been a healthy vibrant little thing, but today (following the removal of the other little guy) he has been constantly at the surface of the tank, hiding himself away either within the plants or in the corner of the tank, and when he does move about he swims very erractically, darting around at light speed.

I've been told that dropsy is not contagious unless the other fish eat/nibble the victim - there was no evidence of this. I have three other fish in the tank - two large fantails (2in long including tail) and one small one, an inch long. There is also a tiny hillstream loach eating my algae! All my other fish are acting normally, swimming well and eating. My smaller fantail has had swimbladder problems for the previous couple of weeks but seems to be improving now I've been feeding them bloodworms.

Can anyone advise what is wrong with my ranchu? I have put 13 teaspoons of aquarium salt in the water since removing the poorly ranchu, and I perform a 20% - 50% water change every week.

Here are the details you ask for: -

Size of aquarium/pond - 60 litres
Types of fish - 1 ranchu (1in), 2 large fantails (2in), 1 small fantail (1in), 1 small hillstream loach (1in)
Filtration used and how do you clean it and how often - Tetra Easy Crystal filter - rinse carbon in tank water every month, change green/white filter media once a month
How much in the way of water changes and how often -- Usually 20% every week, or 30% - 50% every two weeks
Do you dechlorinate - No, I don't think I do - but I add Tetra Aqua Safe each time I change water
Symptoms of sick fish ie, spots, behaviour, etc - as above
How long has the fish been sick and which medications are your currently using or recently used - Ranchu has been acting strangely for one to two days, performed water change, changed filter media, rinsed carbon, added salt. Wondering whether to add Interpet Anti Internal Bacteria treatment
Test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph both from the tap and tank - Sorry, no numbers, but water check done today came back all near zero except nitrate, which was close to the '20' mark, which I was told was safe.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Your water quality sounds fine, in an established tank ammonia and nitrites should always be 0 and nitrates should be between 1 and 40, so your water quality is not a problem. However i would advise doing more regular water changes, for a goldfish tank 40-60% water change once a week. As long as your aqua safe treatment removes/neutralises chlorine and heavy metals in water and stuff then that is good, this is basically what dechlorinator is and it is important that you treat any new water that you put into the tank with it .
Doing more regular water changes and stuff will do a lot of positive things like helping reduce the background levels of any diseases or parasites lurking in the water and so help prevent your fish from falling ill.

What do you feed your goldfish and how much/often on average? Dropsy can be caused by numerous things in fish, from internal bacterial and viral infections to constipation.
Fancy goldfish though they are particularly prone to constipation though (which can be lethal in fish), this is because of the way they have been selectively bred to have a short and compact stomach, which can make digestion difficult for them if they are not fed an appropriate diet and the right amount of food etc. Constipation can lead to dropsy though, so examining the goldfishes diet is the first thing you should check that all is well with it etc.

The salt is not really nesarsary though, marine salt is primarily used to treat specific problems in fish that can tolerate it like parasite infections, it can also help reduce the toxicity of nitrites, however your water quality is already good in this respect. Salt will cause osmotic stress to freshwater fish, so unless you really need to treat your fish specifically for something with it, it is best avoided.

I do have to warn you that your goldfish will outgrow your tank given time, however for now the tank is fine as all of your goldfish are very small. When they reach 3-4inches long though, i would advise upgrading the tank to something a lot larger though, as fancy goldfish like fantails have the potential to grow to 10inches+ on average and ranchu's to 6-8inches long on average;

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=96537

Most people advise 20 US gallons for the goldfish and 10 for every one after that, a long tank is better than a tall and narrow one, however your goldfish have quite a lot of time before they will need a much large tank (i believe fancy goldfish grow 1inch every 3-4months on average or something like that). Just telling you this info though so you are prepared for the future with stuff like this .


With the euthanasia thing though, i think your petshop got it wrong. With the freezing water thing, the water should be left in the freezer before hand to freeze enough to form a thin layer of ice on it, which then can be broken and the fish can be placed in the ice cold water. The temp shock will kill the fish in seconds, however only small fish (less than 3inches long) should be used in this form of euthanasia. A note on freezing euthanasia by an experienced member here;

"5) Slow freezing and putting a fish in the freezer is NOT humane IMO. I DO take issue with rapid and dramatic deep cold immersion as being acceptable. This is just my opinion extrapolated from medical science."


In my experience i have found putting small fish in ice-cold water an acceptable form of euthanasia as it kills the fish within seconds from temp shock etc. However it is vital to make sure the water is at freezing temp before putting the fish in, as otherwise if the water is not cold enough it will take a lot longer to kill the fish.

There are many other (acceptable) forms of fish ethanasia though too;

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=8031


When fish start to display the classic pine cone scale symptoms of dropsy, in most cases there is little hope for the fish (depending on what initially caused the dropsy). However there are many steps you can take to helping prevent dropsy happen, and finding out what caused the dropsy in your goldfish and taking the right steps (like doing regular decent sized water changes, feeding appropriate diet to fish, not over-crowding or overstocking the tank with fish etc) to prevent it happen again is the main thing .

 

[angel.star]

Thank you so much for all your feedback, the information will prove invaluable in the future with my tank.

From what you have said about dropsy being caused by constipation in some cases, I believe this is what happened to my ranchu. For months he sat on the bottom of the tank and couldn't swim properly, occasionally lopping over to his side. I was told this was swimbladder and that it would either correct itself or he would die from stress. It seemed to have accumulated into a bout of dropsy, the poor fella.

As regards the feeding pattern, I give them two pinches of Tetra Gold Japan pellets once every evening just before I go to bed. This week however one of my fantails has been floating on the top the next morning with swimbladder, so I have been feeding them one frozen cube of bloodworms each night (I defrost the cube in warm water before putting them in the tank of course), which I will continue until the weekend. My fantail has improved with this.

Thank you also for your advice about the upgrading of the tank, I have noticed the increase in size of my fantails since putting them in the larger tank (they came from a smaller, temporary one).

I feel so awful about the way I euthanased my ranchu, thank you for your guidance. Hopefully I won't need to do it again, but I will bear your advice in mind.

My remaining ranchu is worrying me, however. His darting around has become more extreme today, and he is hiding even at feeding time which is very unlike him. I'm worried he has a parasite, or that he may be suffering dropsy but with no external signs as yet. I don't want to lose him as well, he's a great character.

Any ideas what may be wrong with him?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I'm glad to help .


With the diet, you are feeding a good quality brand of food, but it is probably too much dried food for fancy goldfish. Feeding a varied diet is the key to good health in any type of fish, goldfish are omnivores so they need a bit of everything in their diet to help stay in optimal health with a good digestive system.
You should be able to get frozen fish foods at your lfs (local fish store), these are great as frozen foods tend to be more nutritious and easier to digest than dried foods- commonly sold frozen fish foods would include stuff like bloodworms, krill, daphinia (particularly good for fishes digestion), artemecia, river shrimp, black worms, brineshrimp etc. There is also special frozen veg packs you can buy specially designed for fish, which can be a good way to get essential veg bit into the goldfishes diet- Tubifex worms are also available, although personally i wouldn't advise them as they often come from waters contaminated with raw sewage.
Cooked de-shelled and chopped up pea's can also be fed to goldfish, you can also feed blanched chopped up spinache or heart of cucumber too- veg may not be as greedily accepted by the goldfish at first, but by cutting down on their other fav foods you can encourage them to eat their veg, as it is important to get some green stuff into the goldfishes diet to make sure they are getting all the vitamins/minerals they need and to help prevent constipation in the goldfish etc .
Some petshops will also sell live foods which are even better than frozen- for a cheaper alternative though, you can always try visiting a local pond to see if you can net up any live insect larvae and critters for your goldfish to eat (i sometimes do this for my goldfish as a treat) .

There are also many types of dried foods too which you can try on your goldfish to get more variety in their diet, pellet type foods in my opinion tend to be better for goldfish as they tend to be less messy than fish flakes- try an avoid any dried foods though which have a high ash content in them, as this is a sign of poor quality fish food.
There isn't really a great deal of difference between tropical and coldwater fish foods, many tropical fish foods are absolutely fine for goldfish. Feeding goldfish lots of foods which contain a lot of protein in them will make the goldfish poop more though, as goldfish aren't that efficient at digesting high protein foods. If your goldfish are on a high protein diet, make sure you keep up with those large regular water changes to ensure the water quality stays good .

Its often good to give fish a day when they get little or no food at all, as fishkeepers we often tend to be too generous to fish with feeding them, in the wild fish like goldfish would get a regular but quite inconsistant supply of food every week, with some days the fish eating more than others and so fish have evolved to thrive off this diet lifestyle. By having something like one day a week when the fish don't get to eat as much as the rest of the week, it helps reflect the fishes natural consistancy in diet more and also helps ensure that the goldfish does not become constipated and that it has plenty of time to digest everything etc.
The only time i wouldn't advise this is with fry/baby fish, as they have very short guts and so become hungrier much quicker than large adult fish with long guts and lots of body fats- often the smaller the fish, the more beneficial lots of small but regular meals are.
Your goldfish are not fry but are still very young/small (i would say they are old enough now to have a day once a week where they get none or as much food as the rest of the week), it will take about 4 years until they are sexually mature and a lot of growing until they are large enough to do so- if you have the time, it would be good to have some days when you feed the goldfish smaller portions but in more meals, like 3-4 meals a day .




With the ranchu darting around, is he flicking/rubbing himself on any objects in the tank? Does he have inflamed/sore looking gills or anus, or white/stringy looking poop? Does he have a metallic dusting over his skin or sand grain sized spots? Any tattered looking fins or cloudy looking eyes etc?
There are many symptoms (both behavioral and physical) fish can display when ill, if there are any more odd symptoms your fish are displaying (no matter how insigificant they may seem), tell us so we can try and find out whats up with your ranchu .
Another thing i would advise doing is testing the water for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and ph to make sure nothings changed for the worse with the water quality too, as water quality problems are often one of the no.1 causes of fish falling ill, water quality can change in its conditions quite rapidly, in younger and less established tank set ups it is always wise to keep a close eye on whats going on with the water quality, particularly when the fish start to behave or look odd.

 

[angel.star]

That's some great advice about food, thank you. I have quite a good pack of frozen food which seems to contain a variety of little critters! They always enjoy it when I give them something different, so I'll be sure to do it more often.

I'll try and list as many symptoms of my poorly ranchu as I can, even if I think it's normal...

Primarily he is hiding in the plants at the top of the tank, seemingly gasping but not at the surface. He just seems to be hovering there, but breathing more quickly, if that makes sense.

He hasn't eaten now for two nights.

When he does move from his hiding place, he moves very quickly, to the point of almost jumping out of the water, and darts at light speed from one side of the tank to another. He is not rubbing against things though, he is just darting from one side to the other. He only moves for a few seconds before settling and hiding again.

I have noticed over the last couple of weeks that two of his scales (one on his left side and one on his right side) are more noticeable, in that they are a pearly white and reflect the light more than his other scales. They do not appear lifted however, and as far as I can see I cannot see anything hanging from them or anything nasty like that.

He has developed a silvery looking patch on his spine. The fish is orange and white, so the silvery part on his back is noticeable. There are no signs of blood/scratches though.

I haven't seen him do a poo for a while now, although there is a very fine, white/cotton wool like excretion making its way out now...

It's hard to see if his eyes are cloudy, because he has odd eyes - literally. He has always had one black eye, and one with a distinct pupil! I've not really scrutinised his eyes before so maybe I'm noticing things that have always been there, but there is a very slight and slow swelling appearing beneath his eyes, e.g. they're not as prominent as I think they usually are!

I hope this helps, I'm sorry to be so vague.

Thank you once again

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

It sounds like he has Velvet (an external parasite) if he has a silvery/metallic patch on his spine/dorsal fin area which looks sorta dusted onto his skin, this would also explain the other symptoms the fish is displaying. I would advise treating him and the whole tank for velvet, using a med which treats velvet and a whole range of other external parasites like one like "anti velvet and slime" by Interpet is a good med for such things .

 

[angel.star]

Thank you, I was suspecting that as well. However, the little mite seems to have made a miraculous recovery today! He's swimming around normally, he had a little bite to eat last night, and he even did a little poop this morning! He's scavenging on the ground for food and swimming normally again! I'm so pleased to see him back to normal, but I am now incredibly vigilant with regard to his symptoms. Should I treat the tank anyway for velvet, or shall I leave it and see how he gets on and treat the tank if his symptoms reappear? He's a funny little fella!

The only thing that has changed since last night is that I fed the fish their normal Tetra Gold Japan pellets instead of bloodworms, which I have been feeding the fish for a week in an attempt to help my fantail with her swimbladder. Could this have had an impact on his behaviour?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Thank you, I was suspecting that as well. However, the little mite seems to have made a miraculous recovery today! He's swimming around normally, he had a little bite to eat last night, and he even did a little poop this morning! He's scavenging on the ground for food and swimming normally again! I'm so pleased to see him back to normal, but I am now incredibly vigilant with regard to his symptoms. Should I treat the tank anyway for velvet, or shall I leave it and see how he gets on and treat the tank if his symptoms reappear? He's a funny little fella!

The only thing that has changed since last night is that I fed the fish their normal Tetra Gold Japan pellets instead of bloodworms, which I have been feeding the fish for a week in an attempt to help my fantail with her swimbladder. Could this have had an impact on his behaviour?

Glad to hear the little fella is looking better today, i wouldn't treat the tank for anything unless his symptoms come back- the food change could have had an impact on the fishes behavior, its hard to say really, but for now i would just keep an eye on the fish and make sure everything is running smoothely, also don't forget to get some veg into the goldfishes diet too .