Sick Orandas Think Ich And Secondary Infection

[krismey]

I have 4 (living) orandas who were fine and eating one night, then 2 were covered on tail fins white spots the next day (4 other fish died quickly with no sign of anything wrong the nite before).

Have performed a 90% water change, raised temp to about 78 degrees, treated with Mardel Coppersafe (bottle says it is good for one month). Removed charcoal filter and treated with Mardel TC for 4 days. 1 fish was never affected, the 2 who had the white spots on their tailfins still have a some spots I think a few less but it's been 4 days since treating with ich med, but are otherwise happy and feeding.

1 is still not eating, hovering on bottom of tank in same area and now has a slight "edging" of faint black color on tail fin, but this one never had the white spots that I could see on the others. They all had tail rot and that seems to have mostly cleared up, but not sure all the way and then this blackish tinge to the tailfin edge.

I am at a loss of what to do. I have read to treat with Mardel Maricyn and Mardel Maricyn 2 after treating with Coppersafe, if not sure of a gram negative or gram positive secondary infection, but have only been using ther TC.

Does anyone have some good advice and also can anyone confirm that ick can be larger than when a fish appears salted? Thanks Kris

 

[aquila]

To help you with this we're going to need some more information...

Tank size (in litres or gallons)
Readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate
How long has the tank been running with the present inhabitants?
What filter are you running and how long has that been set up for?

If I'm understanding this correctly there were eight goldfish in the tank to begin with? That's an awfully big bioload, so unless you have a very large tank this is ringing alarm bells for water quality issues being the cause of the illness and deaths. Black marks on the extremities and tail rot especially have all the hallmarks of ammonia poisoning, and ich as a secondary infection on weakened immune systems is not uncommon.

For now, I would continue using the ich medication to beat the life cycle of the parasite, as if you stop now it may well reoccur, but don't go using any other treatments for now. There's a very real danger of trying to rely on pouring in medications without addressing the real cause, and some medication can be harmful. Keep up the large water changes for now and I'll have another think when we know the tank stats.

 

[krismey]

To help you with this we're going to need some more information...

Tank size (in litres or gallons) 75 GALLONS
Readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. (TETRA) AMMONIA 0 (API) AMMONIA .50, NITRITE 0.3 mg/l-I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO MEASURE THE NITRATES
How long has the tank been running with the present inhabitants? TANK HAS BEEN RUNNING FOR ONE YEAR
What filter are you running and how long has that been set up for? FILTER IS A MARINELAND BIOWHEEL 350 GPH w/2 CHARCOAL TYPE FILTERS

If I'm understanding this correctly there were eight goldfish in the tank to begin with? That's an awfully big bioload, so unless you have a very large tank this is ringing alarm bells for water quality issues being the cause of the illness and deaths. Black marks on the extremities and tail rot especially have all the hallmarks of ammonia poisoning, and ich as a secondary infection on weakened immune systems is not uncommon. THE FISH WERE MOSTLY SMALL WHEN I PUT THEM IN, BUT I THINK MAYBE THERE WERE TOO MANY. I HAVE ALWAYS SEEMED TO HAVE HIGHER AMMONIA READINGS-I AM ALSO A BIT CONFUSED BETWEEN 2 DIFFERENT (API AND TETRA) THE READINGS ALWAYS COME UP MUCH DIFFERENT. I AM A FREQUENT USER OF AMQUEL, BUT I DO SERIOUSLY WONDER WHETHER EVEN SMALLER AMOUNTS OF AMMONIA OVER TIME MAY BE AT ISSUE-I AM NOT PROACTIVE ENOUGH WHEN IT COMES TO THE NUMBER OF WATER CHANGES I DO

For now, I would continue using the ich medication to beat the life cycle of the parasite, as if you stop now it may well reoccur, but don't go using any other treatments for now. There's a very real danger of trying to rely on pouring in medications without addressing the real cause, and some medication can be harmful. Keep up the large water changes for now and I'll have another think when we know the tank stats. THE COPPERSAFE PRODUCT SAYS ONLY TO ADD IT IN ONCE AND IT'S GOOD FOR A MONTH, BUT ADD HOW EVER MANY DROPS BACK IN THAT YOU REMOVE IN A WATER CHANGE AND I WILL KEEP USING IT and KEEP DOING WATER CHANGES

Thanks for helping me-I hope the all caps thing isn't too "loud". I very much appreciate your help. How often should I be making water changes and do you have an opinion on the biowheel? It seems to get dirty very quickly, but that may be me and not the fish by not making enough water changes-I usually make them once a month. Kris

 

[aquila]

That was a very comprehensive reply, that clears things up a lot.

I do think you have too many fish for the tank - the problem with small fish is that they grow into big fish, lol! It doesn't sound like your filter can cope with the amount of waste they are producing, a problem all too familiar to me (have just purchased a second high-rated filter for my goldfish tank for this very reason). This would explain the constant small ammonia readings.

I think a large external canister filter running in addition to the current filter would really help your situation a lot. I'm a big fan of Fluvals (you'd be looking at the 305 or 405 for a tank that size) but anything really would help you out at the minute. There are second hand filter bargains to be had on ebay.

If you've got carbon in your filters it will be removing any medication that you add - I'd remove the carbon for now certainly, and it's probably not worth bothering with long term anyway. Stuff the extra space with filter floss or sponge instead.

There are often discrepancies between test kits and sadly they're not truly reliable, so I would err on the side of caution and go with the highest reading you get. I'd be doing daily water changes at the moment until you can get a new filter established - 50% daily would be ideal. Adding a bit of salt to the new water going in will help the fish cope with the nitrite temporarily - a teaspoon per bucket, well mixed in, does the trick.

 

[krismey]

Good afternoon, Thank you for all of your advice. Since you let me know the meds might not be good and I may be treating the wrong thing, I did another water change yesterday and will do another today to keep removing the meds. The little sickly one has at least started to swim around the tank a bit and pick at the bottom rocks-he at least looks like he's acting a bit more like he used to-I'm not sure but think the black tint has faded a bit. Also, many of the white spots have dropped off the other 2 who had it and they all seem much more active. I will take your advise-I truly don't care fro the biowheel-it's messy. I have an extra filter from the small pond outside and will hook that up this weekend. I knew that goldfish were messy but didn't know it was that bad What is the general rule of thumb for them-about a square ft per fish? I am getting ansy for my comets downstairs-our pond is too shallow to run it for the winter, so they always come to the basement for the winter. I have them in a 180 gallon horse stock tank-I probably need to give a few of them away to someone with a monster pond...there are 6 comets, 3 shubunkins, a growing pleco and a small pleco-eeeek

How do you know so much about goldfish? Do you own a store or just a hobby? (ps) How come no charcoal? Thank you, Kris

That was a very comprehensive reply, that clears things up a lot.

I do think you have too many fish for the tank - the problem with small fish is that they grow into big fish, lol! It doesn't sound like your filter can cope with the amount of waste they are producing, a problem all too familiar to me (have just purchased a second high-rated filter for my goldfish tank for this very reason). This would explain the constant small ammonia readings.

I think a large external canister filter running in addition to the current filter would really help your situation a lot. I'm a big fan of Fluvals (you'd be looking at the 305 or 405 for a tank that size) but anything really would help you out at the minute. There are second hand filter bargains to be had on ebay.

If you've got carbon in your filters it will be removing any medication that you add - I'd remove the carbon for now certainly, and it's probably not worth bothering with long term anyway. Stuff the extra space with filter floss or sponge instead.

There are often discrepancies between test kits and sadly they're not truly reliable, so I would err on the side of caution and go with the highest reading you get. I'd be doing daily water changes at the moment until you can get a new filter established - 50% daily would be ideal. Adding a bit of salt to the new water going in will help the fish cope with the nitrite temporarily - a teaspoon per bucket, well mixed in, does the trick.

 

[aquila]

Good afternoon, Thank you for all of your advice. Since you let me know the meds might not be good and I may be treating the wrong thing, I did another water change yesterday and will do another today to keep removing the meds. The little sickly one has at least started to swim around the tank a bit and pick at the bottom rocks-he at least looks like he's acting a bit more like he used to-I'm not sure but think the black tint has faded a bit. Also, many of the white spots have dropped off the other 2 who had it and they all seem much more active. I will take your advise-I truly don't care fro the biowheel-it's messy. I have an extra filter from the small pond outside and will hook that up this weekend. I knew that goldfish were messy but didn't know it was that bad What is the general rule of thumb for them-about a square ft per fish? I am getting ansy for my comets downstairs-our pond is too shallow to run it for the winter, so they always come to the basement for the winter. I have them in a 180 gallon horse stock tank-I probably need to give a few of them away to someone with a monster pond...there are 6 comets, 3 shubunkins, a growing pleco and a small pleco-eeeek

How do you know so much about goldfish? Do you own a store or just a hobby? (ps) How come no charcoal? Thank you, Kris

Glad to hear that the fish is acting a bit better. Do keep treating for the ich; although the spots on the fish fall off, part of the larval stage takes place in the gravel or free-floating in the water, so you need to keep treating for a few days to kill the larvae at all stages.

The general rule of thumb is 20 gallons for the first goldfish and 10 gallons for each additional one, but this rule goes out of the door for very large fish and is only applicable if you have monster filtration anyway. Just always go for the biggest you can afford and be prepared for water changes.

The pond fish will do just fine in a stock tank over winter - much better than they would in the pond if it's shallow enough to freeze over. I presume the basement is pretty cold, in which case they will enter a kind of torpid stage like they would naturally where the body's processes slow down and they don't produce much waste. If the water temperature is right down in single figures then they won't really require feeding again until spring which will help.

Charcoal/carbon doesn't really do all that much. It's useful for removing tannins etc., like if you've put some bogwood into the tank that's leached out and turned the water yellow, but other than that it's expensive to replace every few months and doesn't give you that many benefits. If you search in the tropical forum there's a few debates about the use of carbon that you might find of interest.

I started out with a fairground goldfish in a plastic bowl aged four - I am just a keen hobbyist who keeps goldfish because they pretty and charismatic, and because I've learned over the years how to keep them best. I would love to get into exhibiting my fish but just don't have the time or money, so they are my pampered pets. I am in a rented house so not allowed dogs or cats, and my horse obviously cannot come into the house, so they are the only house pets I am allowed!

 

[krismey]

Wow, thanks again. No more fish for that tank! I am looking into getting the Fluval filter you talked about earlier. I figured the big one I had for the outside pond could potentially make a huge mess on the wood floor Seriously though, I truly appreciate the advice. I have been doing 50% water changes every 2 days and it has made a huge difference. It was hard to believe the small little guy was almost dead and within 12 hours was begging for food again after the first one! Resilient little buggers! I also got the filter floss and that seems to be catching plenty of stuff and is so much cheaper than the charcoal filters...

I have horses too and lately, it seems like it cost much less to take care of them than it cost for the little fish Happy Holidays to you!

Good afternoon, Thank you for all of your advice. Since you let me know the meds might not be good and I may be treating the wrong thing, I did another water change yesterday and will do another today to keep removing the meds. The little sickly one has at least started to swim around the tank a bit and pick at the bottom rocks-he at least looks like he's acting a bit more like he used to-I'm not sure but think the black tint has faded a bit. Also, many of the white spots have dropped off the other 2 who had it and they all seem much more active. I will take your advise-I truly don't care fro the biowheel-it's messy. I have an extra filter from the small pond outside and will hook that up this weekend. I knew that goldfish were messy but didn't know it was that bad What is the general rule of thumb for them-about a square ft per fish? I am getting ansy for my comets downstairs-our pond is too shallow to run it for the winter, so they always come to the basement for the winter. I have them in a 180 gallon horse stock tank-I probably need to give a few of them away to someone with a monster pond...there are 6 comets, 3 shubunkins, a growing pleco and a small pleco-eeeek

How do you know so much about goldfish? Do you own a store or just a hobby? (ps) How come no charcoal? Thank you, Kris

Glad to hear that the fish is acting a bit better. Do keep treating for the ich; although the spots on the fish fall off, part of the larval stage takes place in the gravel or free-floating in the water, so you need to keep treating for a few days to kill the larvae at all stages.

The general rule of thumb is 20 gallons for the first goldfish and 10 gallons for each additional one, but this rule goes out of the door for very large fish and is only applicable if you have monster filtration anyway. Just always go for the biggest you can afford and be prepared for water changes.

The pond fish will do just fine in a stock tank over winter - much better than they would in the pond if it's shallow enough to freeze over. I presume the basement is pretty cold, in which case they will enter a kind of torpid stage like they would naturally where the body's processes slow down and they don't produce much waste. If the water temperature is right down in single figures then they won't really require feeding again until spring which will help.

Charcoal/carbon doesn't really do all that much. It's useful for removing tannins etc., like if you've put some bogwood into the tank that's leached out and turned the water yellow, but other than that it's expensive to replace every few months and doesn't give you that many benefits. If you search in the tropical forum there's a few debates about the use of carbon that you might find of interest.

I started out with a fairground goldfish in a plastic bowl aged four - I am just a keen hobbyist who keeps goldfish because they pretty and charismatic, and because I've learned over the years how to keep them best. I would love to get into exhibiting my fish but just don't have the time or money, so they are my pampered pets. I am in a rented house so not allowed dogs or cats, and my horse obviously cannot come into the house, so they are the only house pets I am allowed!