Sick! My gourami has red gills

[Mishy]

Hello all,

I was refered to this board in the hopes that someone would have some insight as to what my Gourami is fighting. Here is my original post from the other website. It's a bit wordy but I wanted to be as complete as possible. I love my little guy.


6.7.04
Hello all,

I came home today and noticed that one of my fish was staying behind the intake tube near the surface of my tank. His gills look much more red than the other gourami, and every once in a while he sucks at the surface of the water instead of his normal big gulp of air. The tetra's in the tank seem to be acting normal.

Changes made in the last few weeks:
5/17 added lots of new plants &removed a chunk of driftwood

5/21 switched over to a canister filter. I'm wondering if the resulting surface scum is bothering his breathing. What do you think?
Also, there are these thin flakes that are coming out of the spray bar of my Ehiem, I know that other people have seen these before. Do you think that these would make my fish sick?

5/25 Removed an established sponge filter run by an air pump. (In retrospect, I removed this too soon but I gave it a good squeeze in the tank to help seed the new filter)

I did a 20% water change yesterday like I usualy do.

Here are the tank parameters.
pH 7.8
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0-5
83-84 F (It's really hot here but the fish seemed to do fine last summer)
KH 20
Co2 from chucks calculator is 9.5 (I'm working on getting that higher, but does anyone know what the ideal range is for my level of KH? Chuck's page stops at a KH of 15.)


Right now i'm going to set up a hospital tank since I'm using my QT for some pygmy corry's. I'll watch them at dinner today and see if his appitite is still normal like last night. Do you suggest that I move him now, or wait to see if this gets worse?

6.8.04
Well,
I did another 20% WC yesterday.
My Gourami did not eat at all last night, I even tried feeding him some frozen bloodworms. He is still hanging out at the top of the tank and breathing hard. I did notice some whitish poop today, and i'm wondering if it could possibly be another outbreak of an internal parasite. The gourami's had camalanus (sp?) about 6 months ago and I treated successfuly with discomed. However, I don't remember them acting this distressed. Anyone have any ideas?


Thank for any help you can provide.
Mishy

 

[tstenback]

Hi and to the forum.

To help you out we need a few more details. How big is the tank, how many and what type fish are stocked, any other fish with these or other symptoms, what are your water parameters...ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and others if you have them. Gasping in a gourami usually means an internal problem but not always as it could be related to water conditions and recent, continued stress of some kind. Keep us posted.

 

[impur]

Gill Disease

Symptoms
Rapid gill movements, and swollen or discoloured gills. The fish are likely to stop feeding and may gasp either at the surface or laying motionless on the bottom.

Causes
The disease can be caused by infections of fungi, bacteria and parasites, and poor water quality is likely to be a contributory factor.

Possible cures
An improvement in water quality may be the first step in treatment - avoid overfeeding and overcrowding, and carry out frequent partial water changes. Use a water conditioner during water changes to avoid irritation of the gill membranes by chlorine. It may be necessary to add an anti-bacterial to the water. If gill parasites are suspected, it may be necessary to treat with formalin or copper based medications.


The changes probably stressed it out enough and he contracted a kind of parasite. Another problem that is similar to your fishes symptoms:

Nitrite Poisoning
Fish Disease
Disease Type: Environmental
Cause: Nitrite

Names: Brown Blood Disease, Nitrite Poisoning



Description: Nitrite poisoning follows closely on the heels of ammonia as a major killer of aquarium fish. Just when you think you are home free after losing half your fish to ammonia poisoning, the nitrites rise and put your fish at risk again. Anytime ammonia levels are elevated, elevated nitrites will soon follow. To avoid nitrite poisoning, test when settng up a new tank, when adding new fish to established an tank, when the filter fails due to power or mechanical failure, and when medicating sick fish.

Different species of fish tolerate differing levels of nitrite. Some fish may simply be listless, while others may die suddenly with no obvious signs of illness. Common symptoms include gasping at the surface of the water, hanging near water outlets, rapid gill movement, and a change in gill color from tan to dark brown.

Fish that are exposed to even low levels of nitrite for long periods of time suffer damage to their immune system and are prone to secondary diseases, such as ich, fin rot, and bacterial infections. As methemoglobin levels increase damage occurs to the liver, gills and blood cells. If untreated, affected fish eventually die from lack of oxygen, and/or secondary diseases.

Treatment:
Large water change

Add salt, preferably chlorine salt

Reduce feeding

Increase aeration

The addition of one half ounce of salt per gallon of water will prevent methemoglobin from building up. Chlorine salt is preferable, however any aquarium salt is better than no salt at all. Aeration should be increased to provide ample oxygen saturation in the water. Feedings should be reduced and no new fish should be added until the tank until the ammonia and nitrite levels have fallen to zero.

Nitrite is letal at much lower levels than ammonia. Therefore it is critical to continue daily testing and treatment until the nitrite falls to zero.

Prevention:
Stock new tanks slowly

Feed sparingly and remove uneaten food

Change water regularly

Test water regularly to catch problems early

The key to elminating fish death is to avoid extreme spikes and prolonged elevation of nitrites. When starting a new tank, add only a couple of fish initially and do not add more until the tank is completely cycled. In an established tank, only add a couple of new fish at a time and avoid overstocking.

Feed fish small quantities of foods, and remove any food not consumed in five minutes. Clean the tank weekly, taking care to remove an dead plants or other debris. Perform a partial water change at least every other week, more often in small heavily stocked tanks. Always test the water for nitrite after an ammonia spike has occured as there will be a nitrite increase later.


Symptoms:
Fish gasp for breath at the water surface

Fish hang near water outlets

Fish is listless

Tan or brown gills

Rapid gill movement

Also known as 'brown blood disease' because the blood turns brown from a increase of methemoglobin. However, methemoglobin causes a more serious problem than changing the color of the blood. It renders the blood unable to carry oxygen, and the fish can literally suffocate even though there is ample oxygen present in the water.


HTH and good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[impur]

Hi and to the forum.

To help you out we need a few more details. How big is the tank, how many and what type fish are stocked, any other fish with these or other symptoms, what are your water parameters...ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and others if you have them. Gasping in a gourami usually means an internal problem but not always as it could be related to water conditions and recent, continued stress of some kind. Keep us posted.

She answered most of those questions in her original post.

 

[Mishy]

Hello,

Thank you, thank you , thank you, all for your quick replys. Here is a little more about my tank and my routine. Other tank specs. are in my sig.

My tank is an 18gallon tall, set up since last Ocotber.

Inhabitants:
2 dwarf honey sunset gourami (added to the tank 4/13/04 prev. in QT for 6mo.)
2 otto cats
1 SAE
5 Neon tetra's
snails.
Densly planted: water sprite, wysteria, anacharis (all heavy oxygenators), crypts, chain swords, bacopa and anubius.

tstenback
Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to lurking around this site.

Impur.
Your symptoms of gill disease does indeed seem to describe how my gourami is acting. It is possible that all the changes were too much for him and he just got sick. The other fish are all doing well, there has been no change in apperance or activity.

I do 20% water changes about every 4-5 days (so not quite 2x per week) with declorinated water I keep airated and heated in a bucket. I also test the water once per week. But ammonia poisioning and nitrate poisoning are not entirely rulled out. It's possible that the tests are wrong. I've heard many stories from other forums about that possibility.

I'm hesitant to treat with salt or copper since I do have catfish and tetra's in the tank. I have some melafix on hand, do you think that would work?

I have added an airstone temporarily to see if that helps. I don't think that it is from a lack of oxygen since my plants pearl due to oversaturation of oxygen in the water during the day, and the fish are not gasping for air at night.

I'll also do another water change today after work.

I guess that what i'm asking is:
do you think i should put him in a hospital tank?
Are gill disease and nitrite poisioning the same thing?
Will melafix help if I dose the main tank as an antibacterial treatment?
Why does it have whitish poop? it's usualy the color of the food i feed it.


Thanks for any knowledge you may have,
Mishy

 

[impur]

I definately suggest you move it to a QT and treat there. Don't want it passing the parasite to the other fish. I have never dealt with gill disease personally so i'll pass on the info i have collected for treatment of these buggers.

Treatments

Right from the start I should stress that prevention is better than cure and with good water management practices, most gill disease is avoidable.

If there is the suspicion of a gill problem, is it just one fish or are several affected? The latter will probably indicate an environmental cause.

Check the water for ammonia, nitrite pH and when was the last time the system was cleaned? If several fish are affected, the system should be cleaned and a substantial water change made, somewhere between 50 -75%. Such is the seriousness of this type of disease.

In minor cases simply providing optimum environmental conditions may be enough. Optimum conditions are mandatory if gill disease is to be successfully treated.

Examine the fish for parasites. At this stage a skin scrape from immediately behind the operculum will suffice.

For individual fish a salt bath on two consecutive days is a good start. It won't exacerbate the problem and will help remove any excess mucus or parasites.

If the salt treatment fails to work the next stage is probably a gill biopsy to see what is going on. If this shows a parasite problem then these will need to be treated. With regard to treating gill disease, a combination of chloramine-T and benzalkonium as separate treatments in a treatment tank - not the pond - will help resolve gill problems provided that they are not too advanced. See the treatment pages for details.

Potassium permanganate can be used, but it is often a kill or cure treatment. It will rapidly reduce the parasite and bacterial levels as well as reducing dissolved organics. The draw back is that it will push the really sick fish over the top - mainly I suspect because the permanganate forms a temporary precipitate of manganese dioxide in the gills, affecting fish with severe respiratory problems.

The outlook for more advanced cases where there is severe hyperplasia and/or bacterial / fungal infection is not good. I have had some success - not a lot - with intensive treatment of chloramine-T and benzalkonium chloride together with antibiotic treatment.

other treatment info

If this seems too much and you prefer to use meds, i recommend Maracyn-Two. I have used this med before with much success (although as i stated never for gill disease). Good luck to you and keep us updated.

 

[Wasserpest]

See I told you... some quick help here

Hope your Gourami recovers soon!

 

[Mishy]

Thanks for your help!

I was really worried for him but all of a sudden he looks better. He's swimming around like he normaly did and he's eating like a pig again. I don't know what's going on! I'm going to watch him and at the first sign of anything fishy, I'll put him in QT. I did notice that he had this monster poop right before he started acting normal. Maybe he was constipated, or maybe he was just trying to get my attention.

Anyway's thank you for all your excellent advice.

Mishy

 

[impur]

Glad to hear its ok. I hate stressing over a sick fish and hope i don't have to ever again!!!!