Shubunkin Sudden Death - Seeking Cause

[Cride5]

Hi All,

Back in December I lost my 1½ year-old Shebunkin Iok, and have absolutely no idea why. I hadn't noticed any strange behaviour from her in the days preceding the death, and was quite shocked/surprised when I found her floating lifelessly around the tank. Interestingly, none of the other two goldfish (around her size) had taken any nips/bites. At the time all other fish in the tank appeared healthy and active.

My tank set-up is as follows:

90L Planted Coldwater Tank (70L water vol.)
Established: March 2008
Filtration: Fluval 3+ Internal Filter
Substrate: Sand/Coral Sand (4cm depth)
Lighting: Arcadia 14W 15" Tropical Fishtank Light
Automatic switch 9 provides hours light per day
Heating: Resun 100w Fishtank Heater (set to 21°C)
Décor: 2x Wood Features
Fish:

• 1x Orange Fantail (Tealc) - 2"
• 1x Lionhead (Quazzi) - 2½"
• 1x Plecostomus (Dollar) - 2"
• 5x White Cloud Minnows - <1"

Invertebrates:

• 1x Apple Snail (Morsel)

Feeding: Resun AF2005D Automatic Feeder
Stocked with Aquarian Goldfish flake food
Fed 4x Daily
Maintainence: 15% water change + filter clean fortnightly

The tank has been established for almost 2 years and the water chemistry is pretty stable. To be sure, I checked the water chemistry just after it happened (14th Dec 09) and the results were as follows:

General Hardness: 180ppm
Carbonate Hardness: 180ppm
pH: 7.2
Nitrites (NO2-): 0ppm
Nitrates (NO3-): 20ppm

Finally, I took a few pics to see if it may shed some light on this mystery...

Looking at the area behind the eye, near the gill it seem like there's an uncharacteristic red shade (not part of her original colouring).

In this pic you can see there is a slight deformity in the mouth. This developed about 3-months previously, and I'm unsure of the cause. It didn't appear to impair her eating though.


If anyone has any ideas as to what might have caused this I'd be very grateful. Cheers

 

[kelly528]

Ouch. I see your problems here. Goldfish are unfathomably messy fish, probably the 'messiest' pound for pound. They don't have a stomach, only intestines so anything they eat pretty much comes out the other end. To make matters worse, they need really oxygenated water. Furthermore, fancy goldfish require very different care from common goldfish such as shubunkins, comets and ryukins.

Here are a couple of things that may have contributed to Mr. Fishy's premature death:

1) Commons and fancues cannot be housed together... fancies are far slower and may be bullied by the faster common goldfish (clearly this wasn't the issue though). Commons also need about 3-4 x the space per fish that fancies need. Furthermore commons like cooler temperatures wheras fancies like practically tropical temperatures.

2) Your tank is big enough for 1 fancy goldfish, certainly not 2 and a common plus other tankmates. For fancies you will need 80L for the first fish and 40L for each additional fish. For commons you are looking at a minimum of a 300L tank, which will house 2 commons.

3) Fancy goldfish, being poop-factories and needing heavy oxygenation need a filtration system that turns the volume of the tank over at least 10 times per hour. So for a 90L tank you would need a filter that does 900L per hour. The 3 plus only does about 750 LPH.

4) The more food you feed, the more poop they make. At 4 times a day you should be feeding an infinitessimal amount at each feeding. Flakes are also notorious for blowing all over the tank where nobody can eat them, then polluting the water.

5) The minimum anyone should change the water is 10% every week, with 25% weekly being the norm for a moderately stocked tank. In your stocking 50% every 5 days would probably not suffice. Which is why your nitrates were rather high-ish when you tested.

6) Cold water holds more oxygen than warm water. So in the warm water your shub was probably deprived of the oxygen she needed, which may explain the gill color.


I'm very sorry for your loss (non-fish people just don't understand!) and I hope my advice was helpful. I know pet store employees give the most horrendous advice if it helps them sell more products. I suggest you keep the 90L for the snail and white clouds and start prowling Craigslist for a decently-priced 160-200L tank in which you can house the remaining fancies & 1 new fancy (they like to be in groups of 3 or more). Good luck! And welcome to the forum!

-Kelly

 

[black angel]

the fish in the pic is a fantail, a calico one.

also you ahve a plec and a normal plec grows to 3 foot if it is one of those and attach themselves to the sides of goldies as they have a nice slime coat they are attracted to, but this often happens as the plecs get bigger. at the smaller size they prefer vegetarian foods, ie algae but as they get bigger need a more meaty diet.

if you really need a plec and the temp youc an get to around 20c then a bristlenose plec is more compatible as it only grows to around 5 inches

I agree with the points listed above and that a new bigger home is required.

shubunkins are single tailed calico fish along with goldfish..twin tailed fish are the fantail types.

 

[Cride5]

Hi, thanks a lot for the information..

2) Your tank is big enough for 1 fancy goldfish, certainly not 2 and a common plus other tankmates. For fancies you will need 80L for the first fish and 40L for each additional fish. For commons you are looking at a minimum of a 300L tank, which will house 2 commons.

3) Fancy goldfish, being poop-factories and needing heavy oxygenation need a filtration system that turns the volume of the tank over at least 10 times per hour. So for a 90L tank you would need a filter that does 900L per hour. The 3 plus only does about 750 LPH.

4) The more food you feed, the more poop they make. At 4 times a day you should be feeding an infinitessimal amount at each feeding. Flakes are also notorious for blowing all over the tank where nobody can eat them, then polluting the water.

5) The minimum anyone should change the water is 10% every week, with 25% weekly being the norm for a moderately stocked tank. In your stocking 50% every 5 days would probably not suffice. Which is why your nitrates were rather high-ish when you tested.

I was under the assumption that 80L for a fancy goldfish was for when they reach full size (6 inches). At the moment my fancy goldfish are 2 and 2½ inches in size, is my tank still to small for them? I do intend to upgrade to a larger tank, but I can't do so for at least a couple months because of my housing situation.

Is 20ppm high for nitrate levels? Again, I thought that was within the limits of what is acceptable. Tests are always done prior to doing water changes and filter cleaning, so with a 20% change it should range from 16 to 20ppm (averaging at 18).

6) Cold water holds more oxygen than warm water. So in the warm water your shub was probably deprived of the oxygen she needed, which may explain the gill color.

Other than the gill colour I haven't seen any other signs of low oxygen. The fish don't seem to be gulping a lot, and aren't spending a lot of time at the surface. The remaining fancy fish seem fairly happy and active, foraging on the bottom for food etc. Is it possible that the colouration around the head area might have been caused by haemorrhaging? My brother (a marine scientist) had a look at the pictures and thinks it may have had expothalmia (The left eye appears swollen). What are the possible causes of this? Also, if the red area around the head is haemorrhaging, what could have caused that?

the fish in the pic is a fantail, a calico one.

shubunkins are single tailed calico fish along with goldfish..twin tailed fish are the fantail types.

Oh right .. how clueless of me

also you ahve a plec and a normal plec grows to 3 foot if it is one of those and attach themselves to the sides of goldies as they have a nice slime coat they are attracted to, but this often happens as the plecs get bigger. at the smaller size they prefer vegetarian foods, ie algae but as they get bigger need a more meaty diet.

if you really need a plec and the temp youc an get to around 20c then a bristlenose plec is more compatible as it only grows to around 5 inches

I'm not exactly sure what type of plec it is, but I explained my situation to the dude at the fish store (size of tank, stocking etc), and he advised that this plec wouldn't grow as large as the normal ones. He also said that their temperature range starts at about 18°+ so this is the reason I bought a heater. I'm trying to maintain a temperature of around 21° to keep both the goldies and the plec happy.


Anyway, thanks for your information. However, I'm still not sure exactly what Iok died of. If the water chemistry was indeed to blame, what specifically caused the death? From what I've read poor water chemistry results in lowered immune system and causes fish to die from diseases and infection. Iok didn't appear diseased or stressed before the death. He'd been fairly active and his body/colouration looked as vibrant as normal. The death did seem quite sudden! Still confused..

 

[kelly528]

I was under the assumption that 80L for a fancy goldfish was for when they reach full size (6 inches). At the moment my fancy goldfish are 2 and 2½ inches in size, is my tank still to small for them? I do intend to upgrade to a larger tank, but I can't do so for at least a couple months because of my housing situation.

Fancies reach more around 8 inches minimum. Your tank may not be too small in the sense of swimming space, but like I said... messy fish! I have 1 4" fancy in a 80L tank and I just added another filter yesterday because even my Fluval 2+ does not appear to physically have enough space for the bacteria to colonise!

Is 20ppm high for nitrate levels? Again, I thought that was within the limits of what is acceptable. Tests are always done prior to doing water changes and filter cleaning, so with a 20% change it should range from 16 to 20ppm (averaging at 18).

20ppm nitrate may not be code red... I know most pet stores and test kits declare 40ppm as the line in the sand but still letting the fishies stew in 20ppm of nitrate long-term is not optimal. I find I get about 10ppm by the end of the week in a fully stocked tank so I can't imagine how it would help to let that rise to 40ppm before changing!

Also, may I ask what kind of test kit you are using? Wheras liquid test kits are quite accurate (and cost less per test), those bleeping test strips are just terrible! If you are using test strips your nitrate may not be as low as you think they are.

Other than the gill colour I haven't seen any other signs of low oxygen. The fish don't seem to be gulping a lot, and aren't spending a lot of time at the surface. The remaining fancy fish seem fairly happy and active, foraging on the bottom for food etc. Is it possible that the colouration around the head area might have been caused by haemorrhaging? My brother (a marine scientist) had a look at the pictures and thinks it may have had expothalmia (The left eye appears swollen). What are the possible causes of this? Also, if the red area around the head is haemorrhaging, what could have caused that?

You sure the eye isn't a defect? Unfortunately 'lopsidedness' is pretty common in fancies.

Did some digging on red gills (I know I've seen something about that before) and the two biggest factors that I could find are ammonia poisoning and Oxygen Deprivation, symptoms of which are bulging eyes and gill redness.

I'm not exactly sure what type of plec it is, but I explained my situation to the dude at the fish store (size of tank, stocking etc), and he advised that this plec wouldn't grow as large as the normal ones. He also said that their temperature range starts at about 18°+ so this is the reason I bought a heater. I'm trying to maintain a temperature of around 21° to keep both the goldies and the plec happy.

Plecos are also poop-machines-- about as bad as goldies!

 

[Cride5]

20ppm nitrate may not be code red... I know most pet stores and test kits declare 40ppm as the line in the sand but still letting the fishies stew in 20ppm of nitrate long-term is not optimal. I find I get about 10ppm by the end of the week in a fully stocked tank so I can't imagine how it would help to let that rise to 40ppm before changing!

Anything more than 20 and I'll usually react (ie carry out larger water changes). I'm not sure the filter can be to blame for high nitrate levels, because (if I remember rightly) the biological filter doesn't remove nitrates, it only serves to convert harmful nitrites and ammonia into nitrates. My levels for nitrites and ammonia haven't been anything above zero since the early stages when the tank was set up. Would you suggest that I possibly do more water-changes, or perhaps change a higher proportion of the water each time?

Also, may I ask what kind of test kit you are using? Wheras liquid test kits are quite accurate (and cost less per test), those bleeping test strips are just terrible! If you are using test strips your nitrate may not be as low as you think they are.

I've got two methods.
(1) Neutrifan liquid testing kit
(2) API 5in1 test strips
I use the test strips on a regular basis since its much quicker/more convenient, and use the neutrifan kit when ever I suspect something is wrong with the tank.

You sure the eye isn't a defect? Unfortunately 'lopsidedness' is pretty common in fancies.

Hmm, it could have been. I never noticed it in her before, but it was my brother who first noticed it (looking at the photos).

Did some digging on red gills (I know I've seen something about that before) and the two biggest factors that I could find are ammonia poisoning and Oxygen Deprivation, symptoms of which are bulging eyes and gill redness.

I hope it isn't either of these things which caused it. I've tested for ammonia and its zero. I don't have a test for oxygen, but as I say, the fish look completely fine, no gulping at the surface etc. I've seen the behaviour of oxygen starved fish before, and they certainly aren't showing any signs.

EDIT: One possibility though, perhaps the mouth deformity was impairing Ioks ability to pump water over her gills. Does this seem plausible?

 

[kelly528]

The test strips are just nuts. Quite unreliable, plus quite expensive per test. If you are using them frequently its possible that there have been ammonia and nitrites that the filter couldn't cope with, and you were unaware of them because of false test results.

Here is an interesting snippet on how an inaccurate test kit can screw you over. So if your test strips are revealing less ammonia that what is actually present in the tank, you've got yourself a problem. And from my personal experience with 1 4" goldfish in 80L with a filter doing 100LPH it seems unlikely that your filter is keeping up as well as the strip-tests are showing it to.

The deformity may have interfered with Lok's gills, but I would think he would just breathe faster in that case. It's hard to tell without a necropsy but it doesn't look like the deformity blocked his mouth severely enough to choke off the water supply.

You'll want to test with the nutrafin kit and change lots of water until you get things under control.