Should I bother with cycling a tank? (and other stupid questions)

[cvikcangle]

Some 3 weeks ago I set up an aquarium, Waterbox Peninsula Mini 15, 57L tank, freshwater setup.
Substrate is Master Soil Black - Super Powder (6-7L).
Some dragon stone and driftwood, Ambulia and 2 other similar plants, java moss, some grass and Anubias on the way in (currently in quarantine). No livestock.
Water is very soft, ph 6.8 (tap ph7).
Filter contains some sponge, Sera Siporax and some stock bioballs (came with the tank), all new. Stock pump (1000L/h) is replaced with 600L/h.

On a second day and a week before putting in plants I've added some ammonia (Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride Solution) - should be 4 drops per gallon, I've added 40 drops.
Some 2 weeks after I checked for ammonia and nitrites and i got 0 for both. It was unexpected.

So, my questions are:

1. Should I bother with cycling or just leave it be (and not add more ammonia)?
2. What would be a good flow rate for planted tank? 1000L/h is moving substrate around. 600L/h looks fine but I'm wondering if something like 300-400L/h would be enough.
3. When should I start adding fertilisers?
4. Do I need permanent source of ammonia in the tank?

Thanks for the reading and I hope you'll shed some light on the topic

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

You have to keep 'feeding' the beneficial bacteria as it grows...otherwise they can't grow and multiply...which is the whole point isn't it? I really hate this method of cycling, it's such a faff! I prefer to seed my new filter with media and include a few cups of substrate into my new tank from an already existing established tank, have lots of fast growing plants and a few hardy fish. I much prefer just to do water changes every day.

Keep adding your ammonia, it's representing fish waste, so you'll need to keep adding it ...there's an article on the forum somewhere that explains in detail how to use this method to cycle, hopefully someone will be able to find it and post it here for you to look through.

The flow around the tank should be just enough to lift any debris off the substrate and into the water column for the filter to catch and to gently move the plants, you don't want the plants to be blasted...

 

[cvikcangle]

Thanks Captain

I will definitely try to get the smallest powerhead available and to try for a while to see how it goes. I reckon the latest trends on the market are to put in the biggest possible numbers because bigger is better

Anyway, I've probably haven't been clear in the original post, but this tank should be plants only. Maybe a few MTS just because I love those guys, but won't feed 'em. Definitely not fish planned for the next 6 months, at least.

Because of it I was thinking if there is any reason for me to add ammonia other than to feed plants. Now, I know that most fertilisers are low in nitrates. So that's why I'm wondering if I need to provide some source of nitrogen to feed plants.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

You don't need to cycle if it's just for plants, you can just use fertiliser

 

[Essjay]

Cycle Your Tank! A Complete Guide For Beginners

Fishless cycling https://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/ Silent or plant cycling https://www.fishforums.net/threads/planted-silent-cycling.470400/ Fish-in cycling...

www.fishforums.net

 

[cvikcangle]

You don't need to cycle if it's just for plants, you can just use fertiliser

Thanks!

Information that is available for aquariums and most of "common knowledge" often doesn't makes sense for this application. I'm researching and trying to find more accurate and science backed info regarding this situation.

Many say that you have to fully cycle a tank before planting. Other say the opposite. I've never had a plant only tank.

I was wondering if I put, let's say, one urea pearl in the tank each week, and monitor nitrogen level to support plant growth and not put everything off balance.
I haven't been able to find any fertiliser with normal nitrogen content yet. Also, for substrate they're saying "high nutrient content for aquatic plants", but it's not stated which and how much. I expected substrate to start leaching some ammonia, but I haven't been able to detect any. Plants look healthy and they're growing for now

Cycle Your Tank! A Complete Guide For Beginners

Fishless cycling https://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/ Silent or plant cycling https://www.fishforums.net/threads/planted-silent-cycling.470400/ Fish-in cycling...

www.fishforums.net

Thanks, I've already checked it, but it's misleading and not applicable for my situation because it assuming that I'm either having or planning to have fish or other livestock in the tank.

This tank is just way too small for fish to be happy.

 

[Essjay]

Cycling is just the way fish keepers deal with the ammonia produced by fish, shrimps, snails etc. If there is to be no livestock, there is no need to cycle a tank. In fact a tank with just plants and no livestock doesn't need a filter, just something to move the water round.
The article in the link is for cycling when livestock is intended.

But you will need to use a fertiliser especially with soft water which contains few minerals, and with no livestock to make ammonia you need a fertiliser which includes the macro elements N P and K. When there are fish, these elements are provided by fish waste and fish food. I'm afraid I can't advise on which fertiliser to use as I am not familiar with products available in Australia. Our Australian members will hopefully be able to help with that.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Keep us updated with photos of your progress though, @connorlindeman has become a bit of a whizz with aquatic plants, maybe he can share his experience

 

[GaryE]

In soft water, you will get ammonium rather than ammonia, so it is less toxic for fish, when you decide to add them. I have had a few friends with plant only tanks, and the cycle is unnecessary there. In time, they usually end up adding killies for their mild wastes and flowerlike looks, or algae eating Goodeids or other uncommon livebearers.

I'll be a heretic and say the cycle is a touch over worried about in the current hobby, although that is calming down. The cycle is real, and I'm not saying it can't kill. But techniques like using heavy early planting to manage it may diminish the interest in the fishless cycle over the next few years. I hope so. The hobby has its own cycles.

 

[connorlindeman]

1. Should I bother with cycling or just leave it be (and not add more ammonia)?

Would you mind sharing a picture of the tank? How densely planted is it? If you have enough plants in there already, you can just let it silent cycle.
That's my go-to method for cycling new tanks. Usually only takes a few days for me.

1. What would be a good flow rate for planted tank? 1000L/h is moving substrate around. 600L/h looks fine but I'm wondering if something like 300-400L/h would be enough.

I have no experience with that, so I'll leave that to the others.

1. When should I start adding fertilisers?

How are the plants doing right now? If the plants are doing fine, don't bother adding any ferts. Fertilizers are not necessary unless you have to supplement something that is missing.
For that, I would recommend Flourish Comprehensive. It's a good all-around fertilizer that will supplement most of what you need.
What dechlorination are you using? If you are using seachem prime, wait two days before adding fertilizer to the tank. Prime will "neutralize" some of the elements of the fertilizer. Thats why I just use API Water Conditioner.

1. Do I need permanent source of ammonia in the tank?

You do not want to add straight ammonia to a planted tank. Ammonia kills plants. Some plants can be more sensitive, but it's one of the risks that you don't want to take.

If you are just planning on plants and maybe a few snails, your tank is good to go.
Should you choose to add fish a few months down the line, just test the water, and if alls is well, you can add fish.

 

[cvikcangle]

Thank you all for the info, it's much appreciated! The reason why I'm starting plant only tank is high possibility to go overseas for a month or two and I don't want to put any livestock in position to suffer. I reckon plants can do nicely on their own with just a minor checkup by my friends. I just wanted to have a tiny piece of nature on my desk so I can rest my eyes while working.

@Essjay I wasn't that much into having filter, but this tank looks really nice, and it has filter compartment in the back (or side), so I just put filter media in because I don't have enough space in drawers And it's mainly for mechanical filtration to pick up some dust and other stuff, and to polish water a bit. I completely agree with you regarding NPK,

That is the main question I want to find answer to - what's the best way for introducing nitrogen into plant only tank. I used to play long time ago with a nitrate factory - basic setup with filter media and a pump and hefty dose of urea - after establishing bacteria it was able to produce over 500ppm of nitrate in a day after having 100% water change. I was using it for watering regular plants and as an experiment. I'd love to establish full cycle and stable water parameters. I don't have experience with soft water as I'm coming from Europe and used to water full of minerals and ph of 8-8.5. I'm also worrying about buffers, and I definitely don't want to introduce any "products", but to find something natural and sustainable for this region.

@GaryE thanks for the info. I completely agree with you regarding trends and everything. Sometimes I feel like we're so under influence of marketing and "products", and try to solve all of our problems with hardware and "better safe than sorry" buy more stuff, but without understanding why, how much and if it's really necessary.

I'll add some pictures of my work in progress so you can see how it looks at the moment. I'm taking it really slowly and some of plants I've already purchased are still not in tank because I discovered some of the bladder snail eggs, and I don't like that snail (mostly because of slimy eggs all over the place).

Thank you all for the info!

 

[cvikcangle]

I'll try to add a few photos I've just taken with my phone so quality is really bad, and colours are awful. I'll try to find the real camera and take a few pictures.
I've just tossed in 5 MTS, since I won't add ammonia to the tank they'll be fine (they'll be fine anyway, I know )

It's work in progress, and I planted only tops of ambulia/foxtail. Some are planted 2 weeks ago, and some 3 days ago. That grass is lilaeopsis and new shoots emerging everyday. It's so green, I love it.

 

[gilpi]

This will go against the grain here, but here it goes, I don't bother with the cycling though I'm not against it, I think it works when done properly. I did this decades ago when I started my first saltwater tank. Anyway, with good filtration and a tank say bigger than 15-20 gallons, I put a fish or two in the tank, light feeding and occasional water changes, it will cycle just fine, tried and true... for me.

 

[cvikcangle]

Would you mind sharing a picture of the tank? How densely planted is it? If you have enough plants in there already, you can just let it silent cycle.
That's my go-to method for cycling new tanks. Usually only takes a few days for me.

I've put some pictures Tank is not densely planted at the moment, but I reckon those plants in the background will kick in at some point. I'm keeping light low and only for a few hours a day at the moment.

I have no experience with that, so I'll leave that to the others.

Fair enough I'll make my own experiments with some low rate powerheads. I'm thinking of getting some DC and create my own controller to play with the rate on the fly

How are the plants doing right now? If the plants are doing fine, don't bother adding any ferts. Fertilizers are not necessary unless you have to supplement something that is missing.
For that, I would recommend Flourish Comprehensive. It's a good all-around fertilizer that will supplement most of what you need.
What dechlorination are you using? If you are using seachem prime, wait two days before adding fertilizer to the tank. Prime will "neutralize" some of the elements of the fertilizer. Thats why I just use API Water Conditioner.

So far so good. They're growing slowly, but nothing is melting nor changing colour, and I can see slow but steady growth, except for java moss, but that's glued some 3 days ago
There are some green hairy algae on java moss, and I've been adding a little bit of Fluorish Excel in order to poison it. Also I'm keeping light low for now.

As for dechlorination I'm using some local product. I'm usually trying to use product that is made for the local area I've tried Prime once, and I don't know what that stuff is, the smell of it was not promising at all It kinda do more things that it should like neutralising ammonia and stuff. I don't consider it beneficial at all. I've donated it to local dump I heard good things about API Water Conditioner, but I never tried it. Is it blue?

You do not want to add straight ammonia to a planted tank. Ammonia kills plants. Some plants can be more sensitive, but it's one of the risks that you don't want to take.

Thanks, no more ammonia. Will let it cycle slowly and silently

If you are just planning on plants and maybe a few snails, your tank is good to go.
Should you choose to add fish a few months down the line, just test the water, and if alls is well, you can add fish.

Thanks, I've just added 5 MTS I got from my local fish store for free with plants. I've been keeping them in a container with the majority of ambulia until I finish with ammonia.
I'll most likely go to Europe for a month or two, still don't know when, after I get back I'll might add some livestock, and then I'll probably ask for opinion on what is suitable

Thanks!

 

[Essjay]

I heard good things about API Water Conditioner, but I never tried it. Is it blue?

API Tap Water Conditioner is colourless. Other water conditioners made by API might be blue but I've never used them.

[API Tap Water Conditioner is a basic water conditioner, all it does is remove chlorine and bind metals.
API Stress Coat contains aloe vera, a reason not to use that one.
API Aqua Essential, like Prime, detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate]