Seeking Help As An Amateur

[JoshuaA]

Hello,

Let me begin by saying, I'm not sure whether this is in the right place of the forum , I'm awfully sorry if it is in the wrong place.

So before you today I introduce myself as Josh, a plucking young fellow interested in creating and maintaining a marine tank at home. I live in the UK in a place between Wales and Liverpool called the Wirral, I know of one other member who lives relatively close by. I have some experience in tropical for some time now and am feeling confident that I won't get lost (too much) and can stick to the maintenance required to keep a marine environment as safe and as comfortable as possible for the fish and (hopefully) coral. I also apologise in advanced for failing to proof read some of my post effectively.

Currently I am perhaps being a typical newbie to marine tanks and in my heart I know what I want... I want... wait for it... a pair of clown fish this is the must have in my stocking choice. I know, I know it was predictable though I can sit in front of them and watch them for hours, the local aquarium attraction "Blue Planet Aquarium" has recently finished some lovely new tanks full to the brim (not literally of course) with corals and Clowns a tank solely dedicated to them. I am in absolutely love when I see it, my girlfriend literally has to drag me away and then say hey look something else and spend a few more minutes gazing into what I could possibly have at home. It would probably be cheaper to set up a marine tank then keeping going there!

I have investigated some various tanks for sale and I do want to go for brand new so that I have a warranty running on tanks/equipment just in case, I'm not too confident on shelling out for some second hand equipment only to find it breaks/wears out or needs parts replacement almost immediately, I want it to be a comfortable start. Currently I have my eye on a tank in my LFS under the brand name "Betta" I can't remember the full company name but that is the logo. It is remarkably similar to the River Reef 94L, in fact a little similar... This tank comes with well the tank I believe it is 94L, a protein skimmer, filter/heater all built into the rear compartment and t5 lighting above, now I can't remember exactly how many watts but I am hopefully going down again tomorrow to get the full specs and pricing on everything may possibly need, I'm hoping to source it locally.

What I am ultimately looking to keep in this tank is a pair of clowns, coral and perhaps a clean up crew if possible. I'm aware that 20G is the minimum reccomended for a pair of clowns and then possibly anything more may be pushing the stocking, I have little intention for anything else other than a CUC. I don't fully know the limitations of stocking with coral but have investigated in some that I may be interested in, mainly finger coral, hammerhead, open brain and zoas if at all possible. (Finger the most) though I would like something suitable for the clowns as well of course. Please feel free to comment on the possibilities of combinations and what your opinion is, after all this is why I am here. Unfortunately the tank limit is pretty much set at 94L as there is little space in the house for anything bigger, the dining room is dominated by a 125 planted rio on Co2. I mean if that dominates the room you can understand how little room I have to play with, without getting in the way of everything haha.

Live rock... I was told by the member nearby to look out for tanks that are being broken down to attempt to get live rock for £5 a kilo as my LFS sells it at £12.95 a kilo. I was shocked and when the guy in the store suggested I could put 10 Kilos in the tank I was looking at I was a little shocked that was nearly half the price of the tank in rock. So can people help me find a source or point me in the directions of your experiences. What can I expect to pay for it etc and whether mail ordering it is an option or will die back be too much?

This leads me onto cycling, I am well experienced with the fish-less tropical cycle and am a firm believer this produces potentially the safest way to introduce fish however I'm a little blurry on the details when it comes to Marine. I read a guide elsewhere that suggests introducing the Live rock (which is mostly live but with dead organic present) is not on your biological filter but also your nitrogen source to start the cycle. Am I right in believing this? The guide goes on to say you merely allow the rock seep the ammonia which is the then processed by the remaining colonies on the rock however under no light until nitrite is completely converted into nitrate, followed by a large water change. Am I right in believing a cycle in marine requires no addition of ammonia artificially? Also is my API freshwater test kit useful apart from the pH kit?

Another thing that comes to mind is sourcing salt water/RO water. My LFS offers both for same a pre mix and a RO, the friendly LFS assistant informs me that when taking back either you must put it through a process, as I want to avoid purchasing a RO system myself I would prefer to purchase from them but maybe concerned of the quality. He tells me that the premixed solution requires a minimum of 24 hours being heated to tank temperature whilst being aerated and agitated (Air pump/powerhead) I have all the equipment spare for this to take place. Now is this the right advice or am I barking up the wrong street, and if it is... is it best buying the premix? I believe he quoted 25L for £6.

I think for now I will conclude this post as I don't want to critically hit everyone with a wall of text so early on in the morning. I'll be greatful for any input good or bad and look forward to your responses (if any) . Once again I'm sorry if I've posted this in the wrong place.

- Joshua

 

[This Younger Spouse]

Joshua, I'm no help to you here, but I'm just putting my oar in and letting you know I'll also be watching this thread with great interest.

Saltwater is my greatest aquarium interest, and I had a lot of fun with it many years ago. Beyond my budget just now, but dang I want it bad!

 

[HappyGeorge]

Ok Josh welcome to the Salty side

Let me deal with some of it for you.

We run a buddy system here so if you went for it you could be assigned a more experienced Salty to help you through it, of course you can then ask any little questions direct to your buddy, as some people are reluctant to post what they may feel are silly questions (there is no such thing by the way) on the open forum. People will not jump down your throat here for asking questions and we would expect you to always get a possitive response.

Firstly we have been trying to get together a good resource centre and you will find lots of your answers in there, it is the fourth sticky down in the marine and reef chit chat section LINK HERE. That should answer a lot of your questions.

I wrote a response to a post about first tank advice cost yesterday which may also be of interest, it was to an Australian so I converted prices to AUD but it's probably relevant LINK HERE.

On the subject of Clown sized tank, 20G is not considered a long term home big enough for a pair, you will be very limited what you can do with it. Nano's are great, it's how I started but something a little bigger would give a lot more choice and the built in T5's in most hoods are good enough for some corals but again your choices will be limited. I would re-consider the 2nd hand option, I have 2nd hand skimmers and most of the top end equipment is very robust and can be picked up very cheaply and are fully servicable.

You also mention "I would like something suitable for the Clowns", now if by that you mean Anemone then you need to read up very carefully and look at a bigger tank, you would be asking for disaster putting one in a Nano. They are delicate, will move round the tank killing any corals in their path, kill themselves in powerheads, should only be kept in mature tanks. They may also decide that the place they like is right in the centre of the front glass, if you move them they will come back and if you keep moving them from their preferred place they will stress and probably die, or they may settle fine and the Clowns decide they aren't interested. You would have a chance of the Clowns hosting a Torch Coral or Hammer, in fact they have even been known to host powerheads.

LR wise you do need about 10kg for a 20G is best purchased from a tank breakdown, I have about 200kg of LR between my tanks and never paid over £4 a kilo. If you find a decent tank being broken down and can transport the rock in water you may avoid a cycle altogether (I have set up 3 tanks and never had one). The Rock acts as your filter and needs no additives it just requires flow of water so you would need to add a powerhead to the Nano to ensure good turnover.

Lastly with RO water most of us make our own but I didn't when I had a Nano, although I preferred to buy RO plain and mix it myself so I knew what I was getting. You would still need to invest in a Refractometer to measure salinity and I would suggest a TDS meter so you can check their plain RO's quality regularly (you would be able to do this when you purchase plain RO which you need to top up to compensate for evaporation). I don't know what the going rate for premix is, but RO water is normally between 10-15 pence a litre. As for the mixing regime opinion varies I am a bit Cavalier with it, I mix it until there are no bits in it, heat it for an hour or two and bung it in via the sump, others have a more complicated methods and would not approve of mine.

Think that answers most of it, look forward to seeing your progress.

 

[woody88]

Hi Josh, you seem to have the basic jist of it so far which is a good start. Like HG said you would need around 10kg of LR for a 20G tank, bear in mind tho that 20G is the absolute minimum tank size for a pair of clowns so you'll be very limited in terms of adding any more fish. You might just squeeze a goby or blennie in there but that would be it. If you do decide to overstock then your skimmer will need to be running constantly and weekly water changes is essential.

Sorry if I missed but is the tank a plug n play one (comes with weirs, pump, skimmer built in?)are you going to be running some sort of filter if not. Ie HOB type or external as you will need somewhere to run phosphate remover as phos damages corals and also activated carbon to remove any impurities and keep the water crystal clear.

You will need salt water test kits (salifert and api are the best IMO) and also a refractometer for accurately measuring the salinity/SG (salt level) of the water. It needs to be in-between 1.023-1.026 pref 1.025. Don't bother with a hydrometer as they're inaccurate.

It might be worth you finding out what salt your lfs use for their salted RO water and also If there plain RO water contains any phosphates or nitrates.
The majority of us mix our own salt water with plain RO and a good brand of pro reef salt. ( I use tropic Marin as it buffers ph and kh and replenishes vital trace elements and minerals.

like HG said also I'd your thinking of an anemone it will decimate a nano tank and it would require good lighting. A possible alternative is a lps coral called a torch as clowns have been known to host these and theyre one of the easier hard corals to keep.
They're also photosynthetic (contains a symbiotic algae which feeds off light) so they don't require target feeding like nems do.

Have you decided on what substrate your going to use. Don't fall for the "live" sand gimmick as it's not live until it's been sitting in your tank and has been seeded by your LR for a couple of months.

Make sure you check out the journals and resource threads for more detailed info which will give you a better idea of what your up against. If you have any questions then please feel free to fire away and we happily answer them for you.

Keep us posted Josh and welcome to the salty side!

 

[JoshuaA]

Thanks for the quick responses,

Lots of good information here for me to digest, I've been slowly reading through the resource centre at marine journals for the last few weeks here and enjoyed it but it has only inspired me more.

There is the possibility that the Rio 125 could be used as that tank is only very lightly stocked which could be easily transferred to a new/old smaller tank, (plan was to remove most the plant material to make it easier to manage so I had more time for the marine.) That would allow me to have a ~30G tank which would be a bit more of an improvement, I have a rather large external filter and power heads already in there but I wouldn't know how I could attach a skimmer without doing a sump or much modification to the tank. (Hence why I'm trying to be a bit of a cheat and go for a full blown kit already made.

I am aware the anemones can be somewhat of a hassle at the best of times to care for and I was hoping to find a suitable substitute in easy to keep coral that would satisfy the clowns.

Well here is one of those it might be a silly question but... Do you guys ever use products like Seachem Prime? I mean if you are working up from RO to make your own water conditions wouldn't adding a additive like Prime neutralise some of the elements etc?

In response to Woody, the tank is pretty much plug 'n' play like you said but the filter is built into the back of the tank like in a compartment along with the skimmer etc with an adjustable output nozzle primarily to direct at the live rock so it may seem. I have a Korlina(sp) Nano powerhead that can be used. Though the way both of you have pointed out strongly that it is a absolute minimum for a pair of clowns I don't feel to comfortable so I may have to look into options for a bigger tank... somehow (The Rio 125).

Yeh I've read a few of these topics about "Live Sand" and could never really understand it... kind of like bottle bacteria for instant cycle in the tropical side... it just ain't goin to happen. My LFS suggest a simple bag of sand I think it was quoted at £4.99 for the bag in question in which they said I would probably only need one as I only need a small layer apparently.

With the coral I am looking to stock only photosynthetic as I don't want to attempt to hand feed some coral in such early stages of the hobby. I have probably around a kilo of activated carbon spare currently with no chance that I'm ever going to use it on the tropical side. I obviously don't have any phosphate remover so if needed that is something else I will looking sourcing.

Just on a final note, for me I have a budget in mind but I have about double that budget for emergencies/unexpected issues and unforeseen equipment purchases

Very grateful on the responses so far.

Edit: Out of curiosity on a 30G tank being a more recommended size for a pair of clowns, is there limitation or advisory size there because of their bioload on the tank or because of their possessiveness to control a certain area of the tank? If it was upped to a 30G would there be room for something peaceful to accompany the clowns as it would seem pretty empty. (I allowed my ram to dominate my Rio 125 and when he went into hiding every so often the tank looked empty haha). Though being sea creatures with potentially boundless borders I understand if the restriction on stocking is down to their requirements. The main aim is to get the pair and stock the tank around them.

 

[fishy55599]

in my 33g/125l im gonna be having

2 clowns
1 bangii cardinal
1 firefish
1 royal gramma

then my inverts

with a 30g you could probally have 5 small fish-especially f your skimming

 

[JoshuaA]

Quick response here...

I actually though the skimmer was suppose to be active at all times?

 

[fishy55599]

i cannot answer that...i dont have one

 

[woody88]

Quick response here...

I actually though the skimmer was suppose to be active at all times?

Some people leave their skimmers running 24/7 where as others have them on a timer so they turn off at night as they can be noisy. I suppose really it depends On your bioload and how much and often you feed the fish. I personally leave my skinner in constant as it's quiet.

A 30g tank would be fine for a pair of clowns as well as 3 more SMALL fish providing you don't over feed, run your skimmer constant, have the right amount of LR and perform weekly water changes.
if it has weirs in the back then your return pump, skimmer, heater and filter media (LR rubble, rowaphos, carbon) can all go in there. You could even modify the wiers to setup a mini refugium with some cheatomorpha algae and a little submersible led light.

Powerhead wise you need to aim for 20 x turnover min. ie a 100G tank would require a 2000lph powerhead to provide 20x t/o.
Best to have 2 powerheads for more random flow.

Like I said earlier a torch coral can be a good substitute for anemones in terms of hosting clowns but not always. There's even been reports of Xenia being used to host clowns but have yet to witness it myself.

 

[fishy55599]

dont think he will need his skimmer running constant IMO

 

[sorgan]

all my skimmers run 24/7 now but i have used them differently in the past.

 

[JoshuaA]

Ok so I'm a little curious to see what modifications I will need to make to my tropical Rio 125 to make it compatible for a marine tank, Assuming I have a bare tank but can't do a sump. A 1600LH external filter and a few powerheads. What am I going to need to convert it rather than buying a "Plug 'n' Play" tank?

My Rio 125 is using the modern T5 lighting that now comes with the Rios I think it is JT5 bulbs which output at 28w if I remember correctly of course I would need some suitable bulbs but what else?

 

[littleme1969]

Hi and welcome to marines Its supper addictive so watch out.. You can find my tank diary here..
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/202607-here-goes-nothing-wish-me-luck/
Started with a small 72ltr in 2007 and ended up with a 100G 5ft which is still running great today. I did everything and infact still do everything Low tech. I run my system without a sump and with only a standard internal skimmer. I will stick up and update some time today actually as its long overdue. Theres alot of useful info in there.. most of which i was given off here by other established reefers. Happy to give advise on anything you require.
With regard to the other persons post.. yes Xenia will host clowns.. infact I believe there are videos in my diary of my clowns doing just that. Even my tomato clown had a go
The Rock set up and everything are still the same in my setup, but all the fish that I started with have now been replaced. I re-homed the last Blue Tang last year To Ocean corals at York who found a fantastic 8ft set up for him as he had outgrown my 5ft.

 

[woody88]

dont think he will need his skimmer running constant IMO

He will if he has 4 or more fish in there. Remember it's a nano. More unstable system! Regular wc are key on nano's.

 

[woody88]

Ok so I'm a little curious to see what modifications I will need to make to my tropical Rio 125 to make it compatible for a marine tank, Assuming I have a bare tank but can't do a sump. A 1600LH external filter and a few powerheads. What am I going to need to convert it rather than buying a "Plug 'n' Play" tank?

My Rio 125 is using the modern T5 lighting that now comes with the Rios I think it is JT5 bulbs which output at 28w if I remember correctly of course I would need some suitable bulbs but what else?

Your external filter will house filter media lr, phos remover, carbon etc and if the pump is rated at 1600lph then that would be enough to agitate the water surface to help with gas exchange. Then just a couple of smaller powerheads to create flow for the LR in the tank.

Lighting wise if your running T5's then you'll need at least 10,000k daylight tubes and actinic tubes for that blue effect which brings out the colour in corals and fish.

Plus a skimmer, heater, salty water, substrate and live rock and your good to go.