Ready to euthanise

[sgtbirch]

Ok heres my tank. Its a well established (14 months) 35gal high. The parameters are rock solid. I have only had 1 abnormal reading after I can back off of a vacation 2 months ago. My nitrite spiked. so I perfornmed a water change and it went back to normal within a day)Its populated with a growstar pleco L005 two nicaraguense (1 male med size and 1 female almost med size and colored up) and a Firemouth (T.Ellioti) cichlid larger than the female but smaller than the male Nic. About a month ago I noticed him starting to get ill. The larger Nic had beaten him up fairly good. So I installed a tank seperater to help him recover. He never did, he just got worse. He got this little white spots on him cottony not salty. and he started swimming erratically and labored breathing. Shortly after that I noticed a dramatic color loss and abdominal swelling. So against my normal pratice I treated with an anribiotic called naladin. I followed all directions and removed carbon but still no recovery after a week. After further investigation I noticed the bulging eyes. So then I thought maybe its popeye. So I treated with penicillian, again following directions. It seems the eye swelling went down. But now he has even more white cottony stuff on his head. There is now a small hole when the original white spot on his head was. And a hole in his dorsal fin from the same white stuff. Hes been suffering for almost a month or so now and I cant seem to help him. All other fish are doing very well. I dont want him to die but I feel his pain. So does anyone have some answers for me. Or should I take him to the pet shop (20min ride in below freezing temps-we live in mich) so they can swab him. I dont like the pet shop cause most of them there are idiots. Do I agree to let them cut of his head to find the cause. Or does someone have some great words of wisdom that may bring him back. I would be forever greatful

 

[cichlidmaster]

sgt,

First,

What are the base dimensions of your 35 gallon high tank?? If I am not mistaken it is like 30"L x 12"W x 25"H.

Copora nicaraguense needs a minimum of a 48" x 13" x 20" tank. A tank smaller than this will cause problems for tankmates, especially if you have a breeding pair of C. nicaraguense in the tank.

The male can get to an adult size of 10" and the female 8" so a larger tank is a must!!

When fish get beat up they sometimes cannot recover. It sounds as though the T. ellioti had damage to his swim bladder which is why he was swimming funny. The abdominal swelling could have been fluid in the chest or stomach cavity, again from the attack.

The white cottony patches were most likely a secondary fungal infection from external wounds suffered from the attack. The bulging eyes (popeye) as well from a secondary infection.

Fungal infections, of the type you describe are most times fatal. The fungus penetrates the head and attacks the fishes brain. Once you saw the small hole in the fishes head it was pretty much to late to help.

I know from another post you have already destroyed this fish.This was the most humane thing you could do for the fish!!

Ok now for words of wisdom........

Do not "throw in the towel"!!! Keeping fish is not an exact science!! There is much advice out there on what fish get along together, but this can not be taken as gospel!!

Fish are as individual as humans are and therefore cannot be guaranteed to "get along"!!

It is always recommended to research the fish you are interested before buying. This forum is a great source of information along those lines. We have a member base with a wide range of experiance with different species and some members who specialize in certain species.

Continue to learn as we all do and you will soon find that the hobby can be a very rewarding and enjoyable one.

Most of all.............ASK QUESTIONS!!! We are here to help!!

CM

 

[sgtbirch]

Thanks CM I really have enjoyed reading the posts in this forum. I think this is the most knowledgeable and quick to respond website I have seen. I have recouped a little since yesterday. I have been actually looking at a 75 gal setup that I want but talking my wife into it is another issue. But my nic grows very fast and I think hes ready for an upgrade also someone told me that he needs more females. I cant remember the reasoning though. does this make sense??? Also the nics I currently have are not mating. I havent really tried I just think if they want too they will if they dont, they dont. But one thing that concerns me is the fact when I purchased my female about a month ago she was colored beautifully. Body bright orange and head a pale blue green color. The water is fine(parameters good). But shes lost ALOT of color other than that all behavior is good. Does anyone know what I can do to help bring back her color?? Anyway thanks for all the excellent info. But the way everything ive read says that nics are peaceful. and where did you get the info on the tank sizes just wondering

 

[cichlidmaster]

Hey sgt,

The tank size recommendation comes from years of experiance with cichlids (20+ years).

What you have read is true....to a certain extent!!! There are cichlids that are classed as peaceful...mildly aggressive and highly aggressive!!!

While those peaceful and mildly aggressive ones are most times just that...peaceful...they are still CICHLIDS!!!!

Cichlids of any temperament can turn at any given time. Take what you read and use it wisely.

No two fish are exactly the same. As I've said many times....one fish may be a wimp in one persons tank, but the same fish may be a tyrant in another persons tank.

I have kept fish that many people have kept and said were totally peaceful, but in my tanks they have killed everything to the point of only one fish being left!!!

Your nics would do much better in a larger tank.

As for the color fading in the female....what do you feed them?? Do you feed a variety of foods or just one type of food??

Fish, like people need a varied diet to be healthy and happy!! Try feeding them some frozen foods such as brine shrimp or bloodworms once a week coupled with some freeze dried krill. This should be fed a couple of times a week and feed a high quality flake food the rest of the time.

Water changes....how often do you do water changes??? In a tank that size with bigger fish that are diggers and therefore messy you should be doing a minimum of 40% weekly!!! Bi-weekly changes of 20% would be even better!!!

Both water changes and diet could be contributing to the females loosing her color!! You said the water parameters are good, but have you tested them?? If not you will want to get test kits for the following:

1. Ammonia
2. Nitrite
3. Nitrate
4. Ph

You can also have your LFS check these, but if you do get the readings from them and post them here so we can look them over. Most times the LFS will simply say "They are fine:!! You should really ask what the readings are!!!

A 75 gallon would be ideal for this pair of fish and would leave you some room for a few more as well.

Nic as well as most other S/C American cichlids are not harem breeders!! The need for extra females is not necessary nor recommended. The extra female would only end up either getting beat up terribly or killed!!

The reason it was suggested to have more females was more than likely to give the male a choice of mates and to provide other fish for the male to direct his aggression on while in a spawning mood. This is a bad choice for dither fish as females of the same species that are not part of the spawning pair usually end up dead as do non-dominant males of the same species.

Always go for a different species for dither fish, but ones that can take a pounding or at least get out of the way quickly.

It sounds like you bought the male and female at different times...is this correct?? If so it you will have a somewhat more difficult time breeding them!! This is not to say that they will not form a pair bond and breed, but it will be more difficult!! It is always better to buy 4-6 small fish and let them grow up together and pick their own mate!! The pair bond is usually stronger and breeding more successful.

Well that's about it for now. If you should have any more questions please feel free to ask. We are always more than happy to help!!!

CM

 

[semper fi]

woah cm your danny is showing!

sgt birch, sorry to hear about your problems. hope it has not discouraged you from fishkeeping. can only agree on what cm said though. no two fish are alike, everyone's experiences are different and take any advice given but expect different results. had a pair of firemouths that i really liked nice peaceful fish. lost them cause they got beat on. poor babies. was away for the weekend and came back to find them dead. felt really guilty about them. saw some more recently in a lfs that were really colored. got two with a managuense and two trimacs. one of the firemouths came up dead the next morning. thought it was either the trimacs or managuense. all were juvies. then one of the trimacs came up dead. blamed the managuense. separated the firemouth and trimac and the next morning the managuense cam up dead. seems it was the firemouth all along. thought for sure that the managuense would be okay with the firemouth and left the two together. they were okay for awhile. then one morning the managuense was dead. the firemouth now resides in with larger fish that he still continues to terrorize. go figure. these are the fish that were with the original pair that got killed!

don't give up hope. probably was like cm said he got weakened after the beating.

where are you in michigan? if you are interested got some convicts that i will give to you

maggie

 

[sgtbirch]

WOW you guys rock. You should get paid to do these posts. Your info is so much better than the LFS. I have my own test kit my wtaer today reads like this Ph 8.0 NH-.25(tomarrow is scheduled water change day) NO2-.3
KH-6 GH-9 I think thats it my kit only checks nitrite and not nitrate. How important is nitrate?? temp is 81F
Diet is 3-5times a week brine shrimp flake. 2-3 times a week couple of shrimp pelletts. Now after typing it out I see I am a MORON. I know I wouldnt eat shrimp 6 times a week. (normally skip 1 day a week in feeding). I'll go buy some aquadine flakes this week. Unless someone has a strong suggestion. And some bloodworms(frozen). I also feed aquadine duradisk to my growstar pleco 2 times a week. Semper Fi I live in lansing. I'll have to get back to you on the convicts. How big are they?? CM- what do you mean 40%/WEEK WOW I am nowhere near that. I do a 1/2 gravel sweep and 30% water change every two weeks. Why so much so often that you recommend. I am very careful not to overfeed- plus any that reaches the bottom my pleco comes out to find since hes a strict carnivour. Anyway thats for all the support guys I wasnt really gonna give up. I have been keeping fishes for a couple of years. But I just got serious about the hobby and vowed to do it right. It was just gut wrenching when I tried so hard and still was not able to save him But I am ready to try again even more determined. Also FYI I dont really care if my nics mate I just like the way they look in the tank. And she is truley gorgeous when shes colored up. One of the nicest SA in my LFS. I will post a picture if I ever get her colored up again and you guys can be like proud surrogate parents

 

[cichlidmaster]

sgt,

Let's start with your test results.................

Ammonia - NH3 - .25...should be 0ppm

Nitrite - NO2 - .3..........should be 0ppm

Ph - 8.0..........slightly high. recommended 7.1 - 7.3

Nitrates are not as important, but should still be monitored now and then. Nitrates in a high enough concentration can be deadly to fish!! Nitrates are usually kept within range by water changes!!

I recommend large water changes when keeping C/S American cichlids for several reasons.........

1. Their size
2. Their penchant for digging
3. Their appetite

You stated your nics are medium size right now. Given the adult size of 10"M/8"F that would puts yours around 6-7"M/4-5"F. At this size, and given the size tank they are in, larger changes are in order as 30%bi-weekly are not enough which is also a possibility why your NH3 and NO2 are elevated. Remember, large fish produce a lot of waste!! Fish not only deficate, but urinate as well which will elevate the NH3 levels if adequate water changes are not done. This is also a possibility why your female has lost color!!

I would recommend at least bumping up your water changes to 30% weekly to start as this should help keep your water parameters in check.

Feeding a high quality cichlid flake, coupled with the shrimp flake several times a week and a few shrimp peelets now and again would provide a good all around diet. By all means get some frozen as well, but feed sparingly...maybe once a week to every 10 days. Uneaten frozen foods can foul the water quicker than any other food IMO as it starts to deteriorate as soon as it hits the air!!! Fasting the fish one day per week is a very good idea!! I fast all my fish once a week except for fry and juvies. This helps to clear out the digestive tract and helps them work up a hunger for the next feeding!!

As for the nics spawning, you may not have a say in it . If the two decide to pairup and breed make sure any other fish in the tank have enough room to move out of harms way!! Cichlids, when breeding become very intolerant of any tankmates in the spawning area.

Well I hope this helps and keep us posted!!!

If possible, post the dimensions of your current tank..

CM

 

[sgtbirch]

first of all I must say I am addicted to these forums. Its mainly because of the quality and prommptness of the responses. CM you wanted the tank dimensions 30*13*17hi. My female is 4inches and has gotten back alot of her color over the last two days. and my male is 5 inches but not real girthy yet. Its funny you should mention that they are diggers. I have never seen either of them dig. But oddly enough after I removed the other fish the female gets her colorback and the male diggs this gigantic crater right in the middgle of the tank. The crater is 7 inches in diameter and over 4 inches deep. (hes built the sides up very high. I thought this maybe a sign of mating. Am I wrong. Or is this just part of the maturing process of my fish. Either way its pretty crazy. I really like my nics but they dont seem to be to popular. By the way I am feeling guilty about being on the emergency forum. how can I move this to the cichlid forum. There is alot of good info in the discussion that may help others. I know I am forever greatful. I am totally pumped about my fishkeeping again. NOw I can find answers rather than the yahoos at the lfs who consistantly lie to me