Ranting about a Possible Bad LFS

[Becca]

UGH...Ok, I'm just ranting here, but I need a place to post this and vent - especially to people who understand how frustrating having a tank can be at times. So, just forewarning you - this might be a bit lengthy.

Ok, well I have just a few fish, a 29-Gallon tank and I've been SLOWLY adding new fish, about 3-5 every few weeks or so, paying careful attention to make sure that each species is tolerable of the others I have and are disease free.

Well, when I was ready to buy my tank back in September, I visited a LFS that had/has excellent prices on equipment. Unfortunately I don't think they know much about fish maint. or upkeep - I've received what I now know is bad advice from them on several topics. (For instance, the store told me that putting up the tank and adding water would allow me to add as much as 12 fish within the next 8 hours. I've also been told that I can have upwards of 50-75 1-inch fish, just little tetras, in a 29-gallon, as long as I have an airstone. I could go on, but I'll stop here.) Anyway, I bought about 10 fish from them the day after my aquarium was set up, not knowing any better and lost most of them shortly after. I didn't know why then, but I do know.

Figuring that I lost most of those fish because I didn't have enough Nitrates setup in tank, I decided to give them another shot, so I swung by the store on Friday evening and picked up 3 beautiful Fantail Goldfish. I carefully introduced the fish to the tank and enjoyed their beauty all weekend.

Last night I did my usual ammonia test (found that my tank was running a little high on ammonia - 0.50, not fatal, but still needs to be addressed), so I did a water change and made sure to clean the gravel a bit better than normal, even rinsed out the sponge from my filter in the old tank water. Well, this morning, I woke up and on my way out the door noticed one of the fish was a little more plump than she had been last night and a small string of something was attached to her rear end. I figured she might just be in heat, was running late for work and would check back on her when I got home.

So, I get home this evening and fine, guess what: The poor fish is lying on her side with her beautiful long fins stuck in the intake valve for the filter. She's breathing, though it looks like her gills are gapping for air. I GENTLY help remove her from the valve and isolate her while I try to figure out what to do. I didn't notice any spots on her, my water levels hadn't spiked, and the rest of the fish look just fine. About an hour later, she quit breathing.

A little disappointed that I lost a fish from this store after being reasonably sure that I've done everything right this time around, I called the LFS and explained that I bought 3 fish from them Friday night and I was curious if they have a guarantee on their fish. I was told that all fish sold on any day other than Sunday come with a warranty. On Sunday they have 1/2 off their entire selection, new stock comes in on Monday, so they don't guarantee those sales. I asked how long theiir guarantee was for, I was interested in returning my now dead goldfish for a new one. Wanna take a stab at how long it was? 24 FRICKING HOURS!!! This place doesn't even have enough confidence in THEIR OWN FISH to guarantee them for more than a day. That's just sad.

And as if that wasn't enough, my ammonia levels were still a little high, so I did a much more thorough job cleaning the tank - though was careful to not overdo it and kill off my nitrates. And guess what I did. You got it. I didn't let my heater cool off. Wanna guess what busted when I put water back in. You got it, my heater. Fortunately, none of the fishes appear to be floating around with glas in their gills. D

Anyway, I'm done ranting! (Wow, that actually helped!!)

 

[cutechic]

Sorry to hear about your loss.

Many lfs give that advice. I know that all the ones in my area do, anyway.

To help with the ammonia, I'd suggest doing water cahnges every day, but not cycling the gravel, cleaning the filter, etc.

With goldfish you don't need a heater.

I don't know what to suggest about the cause of your goldfish's death, other than the high ammonia. It may have been sick already.

HTH and good luck with your other goldfish

 

[Sky042]

You don't need to have a certain level of nitrates in order for fish to live. You need nitrates for plants to live. Actually too high a nitrate level will kill off fish. Why a heater removal during cleaning? Also what did you do during your cleaning. I know you vacumed gravel but what else was done?

 

[noelberg]

YIKES! I definitely have to say that a lfs that can't guarantee their fish for 48 hours (with or without your tank's water sample) is pretty poor. The PetsMart near me has clean tanks and even guarantees their fish for 2 weeks! Very seldom is it that you can tell that a fish is sick or dying within one day.

You might also be a little confused about the nitrogen cycle. When you said "nitrates" I think you were referring to the helpful bacteria that convert fish waste into less harmful compounds.
Simply stated, here's the nitrogen cycle:
1 Fish produce waste, which is basically ammonia (potentially deadly)
2 Bacteria convert ammonia into less harmful nitrIte (also potentially deadly)
3 Bacteria convert nitrIte into least harmful nitrAte
4 Live plants use nitrAte as fertilizer

Overstocking or overfeeding can cause more waste which is deadly ammonia. When the bacteria catch up with the increase in fish/waste, they will eventually produce more nitrAtes which can cause algae blooms and/or poor water conditions.

Good luck and HTH

 

[fishdudein]

Sorry about your loss. I think just about everyone on this forum can relate to your frustrations, unfortunately it's all too common a scenario in the shops.Checking your signature, I see you have the goldfish in the same tank with your tropicals...goldfish are actually better off in unheated tanks, while the tropicals (usually) require a heater. Don't know if this was a factor or not, but something the lfs "should" have told you....

 

[Sky042]

the chains that garauntee a fish for 2 weeks uses that as a ploy to get you to spend lots of money on chemicals once they blame your water.

I deal with a few very reputable fish stores who don't garantee your fish at all. There are just too many variables.

the best place I deal with offers you 48 hours with a water sample.

 

[Becca]

cutechic:
I have other fish as well that actually do require a heater (mostly tetras, but a couple others.) I have no clue about his death either, he was 1 of 3, the other 2 *appear* to be just fine, though if they're suffering from out of control ammonia, nitrites or nitrates, I won't be able to tell right away (or at least, I don't think I will...)

Sky042:
Ahh, thanks for that clarification. I'll make sure to definitely keep an eye on my nitrates as well. D (I plan to get test kits on Friday, but until then will have to rely on one of the LFS or LPS to test my water for me and be honest with the results.) I have no live plants, just plastic. D

As for the heater, I didn't remove it during cleaning. What happened (and this is my fault because I wasn't paying attention and just didn't use common sense), I started draining water WITHOUT making sure the heater was off and cooled down a bit. So, it hit the air, than immediately hit the cold water after I was done with the cleaning. As I put the water back in, I heard a sizzling noise and looked at the heater and noticed something brown and boiling, LOL. Turns out the heater cracked and then the bottom portion broke off.

As for what I did when I cleaned, I hadn't cleaned the gravel well in a LOOONG time (read: other than last night, ever because - quite frankly, I was told by this LFS that vacuuming was not necessary.) So here's what I did do:
1) I vacuumed the gravel out, getting quite a bit of the debris and removing about 15-20% of the tank water.
2) I removed the sponge from the filter and rinsed it in the old tank water, then replaced it.
3) I dechlorinated a gallon of water, tested it to make sure that it did NOT contain ammonia (the back said that if my tap water has cloramine, the conditioner will release ammonias, I wanted to make sure we have chlorine, not chloramine.)
4) Once the test returned negative for ammonias, I refilled the tank with water close to the same temperature as the current tank water.
5) Wiped down the outside, and replaced the lid and light.

2 hours later, I tested the ammonia level just to see what progress I was making, not expecting to see a change yet and the levels were down from 0.50 to around 0.25. Appears I may have found the problem - some nasty debris build up.

 

[Sky042]

Sounds like you're on the right track becca.

 

[Becca]

Cool, I hope so!! D I do have a question though. When you're vacuuming out your tank, is your goal to get the majority of the debris from the bottom, or do you want to leave quite a bit? (Considering I do not have any live plants and have no plans for them in the near future.)

 

[fishdudein]

If you dont have live plants, there is no other end user for the debris, so yeah, get as much as you can.

 

[Becca]

Cool beans, thanks for the help!

 

[bulldog188]

one thing no body seems ot have mentioned is the fact that if you are experiencing an ammonia spike then cleaning your filter sponges will do more harm than good.. I know you were just trying to get rid of a bit of junk in there but in effect you would have removed some of the bacteria in the process.. really you shouldn't be touching your filter media whilst any spikes are occuring.

 

[Lateral Line]

If your fish died because it was sucked into the filter, I'd be suprised if an LFS would take it back. What you need to do is put something over the filter inlet to prevent it happening again.

Another point is that goldfish are cold water fish. They produce a lot of waste for their size and contribute more to the biological loading on the tank than average trops. Also, cold water can hold more dissolved Oxygen then warm, thus your goldfish will be permenantly under a certain amount of stress due to lower then normal O2. It is not a good idea to keep goldfish in a tropical tank.

Other then that, you seem to going along in the right direction.

 

[aberdeen aquarist]

the other thing i'd be worried about is the knife fish, this will quite easily eat the tetras and anything it can fit in its mouth. you may want to get rid of it before it has a chance to. also lateral line has a good point about the goldfish, you may want to change them for something else.
you have found out that not all lfs' are worth spending your hard earned cash in, don't be too put off there are good ones out there.

 

[Becca]

Let's see if I can field everything on reply:

bulldog:
The ammonia levels haven't spiked, in fact what's happened is I was told to *NOT* vac my gravel at all, so my tank has sat with debris on the bottom, even after bottom feeders, for quite a few months. The filter media (and by media, I mean only the sponge) also had only previously been cleaned using HOT TAP water, so last night when I did my cleaning, I made sure to clean the sponge in some of the syphoned tank water, only by shaking free the debris within the bucket of old water. As for the vacuuming, you wouldn't believe how much debris was on the bottom. I checked the ammonia levels 2 hours after the cleaning and it appears as though it's gone down to 0.25. That's great considering it had been at 0.50 for weeks (I had been told a small amount of ammonia is ok.)

lateral:
I do have a protective cover over the inlet. Let me clarify - when i say the fish was sucked into the inlet, I mean his hind tail was caught - I've had this happen in the past with fish that can't swim or have died in the tank. It's hard to explain, but I doubt he died because he was sucked into the valve, if his fin got caught and he wasn't extremely sick, he'd have been able to free himself. (It's hard to explain...)

Thanks for the advice on Goldfish, seriously - if I had known they were goldfish, I would have *NOT* bought them. The sign said "Fantail" and I had no clue that they were a breed of Goldfish. (Another of my newbie mistakes, which I'm recovering from)

aberdeen:
I know about the knife fish. LOL. It was a huge mistake. I've had him for 2 weeks, he's adjusted and has literally left my tetras alone. I didn't research the fish enough - heck, until recently (and mostly thanks to this forum) I didn't know *HOW* to research the fish. Now I do, and I'm actively pursuing a good home for him. I should add that tag to my signature, lol. It seems I have to cover this anytime someone replies to one of my posts.

As for the goldfish, I'll see how they do, but I just may consider donating them back to the LFS I bought them from and restocking my tank with something more suitable.

Thanks to everyone for your concerns! All of your ideas and thoughts are helping me along the way - I'm learning quite a bit.

*edited for smiles*