Ram's - Help Sexing Pls

[tenohfive]

I bought a pair of rams about 3 weeks ago. As best we could myself and the bloke in my LFS tried to sex them and I think we got a male and a female. They've been quite happy paired up for most of the time they've been together.

They've had a very stressful week for the last week long story short but as from this afternoon, things should be settling down again. That said one has been chasing the other pretty relentlessly. I've got a reasonably well planted tank and theres the odd hiding spot, but the aggressor keeps coming looking for the (I'm thinking) female. She's lost alot of her colour.

I'm not planning on rushing her out of the tank, and suspect the last weeks stresses may be related to this. But could someone have a look and make sure I have sexed them correctly?

 

[dnn3]

judging by their size i would say they are both females but i don't see pink on either belly.my male is much larger than my female.do you have any better pics?

 

[Thomas McMillan]

I would guess both male - not certain though.

 

[tenohfive]

I'll try and add some better ones a bit later.

 

[minxfishy]

Look both male to me. The female would have a pink belly and also speckles of blue in the black spot on the side. At their size it should be easy to see, the female would definately have a pink belly. I have 3 GBR's - 2 male and 1 female and there is a definate difference.

 

[tenohfive]

I'm inclined to agree - theres no sign of pink on the more submissive ones belly. The weak one is and has been noticably paler since the start, which is one of the things that made me think it was a female.

Should I consider rehoming/taking back to LFS to swap, or will they be alright? 60L planted tank, average temp 25-26C, water changes every 3 days (15% then 30%, repeated), Cory's, Danio's and Otto's as tankmates currently - soon to be joined by a dwarf gourami.

 

[minxfishy]

If one is looking pale and stressed because of the bullying, then yes I would be inclined to take it back and try to get a female. Although that doesnt guarantee that the dominant male and the female will pair off, he would be less likely to bully a female.

Alternatively take back the dominant male to exchange for a female.

Im sure you know this, but do you have enough caves/cover for them. Being territorial, its best they both have some place to call their own. Also, if you can break up the line of sight to each other, either by plants, rocks, wood etc, then this may help to aleviate the bullying.

 

[tenohfive]

Its always been a heavily planted tank with caves, but I recently rescaped to improve things. I'll stick a couple of photo's of the whole tank up, I'm certainly open to suggestions.

 

[tenohfive]

I've taken a couple more pic's below, but now that I think about it - the weaker one does get followed round on some occasions, but on others seems quite happy with the other Ram. He could be hiding away alot more than he is, but if theres something I can do to make a better environment for them I'll do it. I don't have any bogwood but I've got loads of slate (loaded up the car when I went to the lake district )

 

[minxfishy]

Looks pretty good to me. Is the dominant male actually being aggressive to the other ram? Or is it just a case of following. Normally with rams its mosly bluff (unless you had a spawning pair then they can become quite aggressive with all the other fish in the tank).

From the pictures I wouldnt say either had a major loss of colour, Im assuming the dominant male is the one with the obvious black markings? I would be inclined to add a few more hiding places, make some nice caves up with that slate you have, space the caves apart from each other and see how they go. If you havent had them long, then they should sort themselves out, but if the aggression is obvious and the submissive male really looks stressed or hides away alot then I would re-home him.

If you are setting up that other tank, then I would put him in there. They dont need to be in pair to be happy.

 

[tenohfive]

Rehoming one in the new tank had crossed my mind. In fact, I'm tempted to get half a dozen in the new tank, so they can pair off naturally and maybe have a crack at breeding them. One idea anyway.

Theres been a couple of occasions when they've been properly aggressive (headbutting) that I've seen, but for the most part its just following.
Neither of them have lost alot of colour, but compared to how they were last week the weaker one is noticably paler.

Thanks for the advice, I'll add another cave later today and see how they get on.

 

[minxfishy]

If you do decide to try to breed them, getting half a dozen would be a good idea, however, if you do form a pair, you might need to re-home the rest as they will be aggressive to the others if they spawn. If you ended up with 2 or 3 pairs you really would be in trouble

Out of interest, whats your ph, hardness like down there in Herts (I come from Hemel Hempstead myself, moved further north as Ive gotten older!), I know they like a softer water, though mine do well in my 7.6 ph but for spawning, it would need to be lower I believe. Someone with more breeding rams knowledge should be able to help you more there.

 

[tenohfive]

It is a quite hard water area but I've not had any major problems with fluctuations etc. I've gotten all my fish so far from either St Albans or Chipperfield and they don't have any real problems with it. The only slightly sensitive fish I've added so far are the rams though, and they've only been in for 3 weeks so I guess time will tell on that count.