Prime or Stress Coat

[Sam042955]

I have to respond to this post (I joined the forum just to respond). I have 2 betta tanks, a 5 gallon and a 10 gallon (for a giant betta), with 1 fish in each tank. Silk plants. Water temp 78.8 degrees. 2 Aquarium Co-op nano sponge filters in each tank.

The tanks are both cycled and have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, a ph of around 7.4, and, up until a few weeks ago nitrates of 5-7.5ppm-15ppm (max). Herein lies the rub...my TAP water has a nitrate level of around 5-7.5ppm. I just reconfirmed/tested it. So obviously just doing water changes, no matter how frequently, wasn't going to do anything to lower the nitrates below 5-7.5ppm because my tap water had a bottom ceiling of 5-7.5ppm. (Water changes would and did obviously lower the 15ppm level, but only to the tap water ceiling minimum.)

Last week my giant betta got a little feisty and decided to jump out of his tank during feeding time (I have a glass top on both tanks but lifted up the lid to feed him and he got a little too excited.) I was able to quickly get him back into his tank but freaked when I read that he probably lost a lot of his slime coating as a result of the fall. So I ran up to Petco and grabbed a bottle of API Stress Coat (up until that point I'd been using Prime.) I did a 50% water change but instead of using Prime I used API Stress Coat.

Also, in the 5 gallon tank my rose petal guy had either ornament-related torn fins, self-inflicted/bitten torn fins, or fin rot. This occurred a few weeks ago and I'd started a regimen of daily 50% water changes, even though, to my mind, it was pointless because the water parameters were already spot-on. Since I'd gotten the Stress Coat I decided to use it instead of the Prime to see if that would help with his fin regrowth, so the last couple of water changes involved Stress Coat instead of Prime.

Yesterday I tested the 5 gallon tank for nitrates. For the first time EVER the level was at 0-2ppm, instead of 5-7.5ppm. I figured I did something wrong with the chemicals/testing so I repeated it. Again...0-2ppm for nitrates.

Today I did a 40% water change today in the 10 gallon tank, waited an hour or so, and tested for nitrates. 0-2ppm! I was thinking...WTH?!!! So I just re-tested my tap water to see if maybe something had changed, but nothing had changed; it's still 5-7.5ppm for nitrates. The ONLY difference was the Stress Coat.

So I Googled to see if somehow Stress Coat helped in the reduction of nitrates and found this thread. I know this is only anecdotal "evidence" and not scientific in any way, but there is no doubt that:

1. My tap water is a constant 5-7.5ppm for nitrates.
2. Up until I started using Stress Coat the lowest reading I found for nitrates was 5-7.5ppm.

What I don't know is if this is a temporary reduction or not. But still, I'm much more in favor of a lower nitrate level so I intend to keep using the Stress Coat and do daily nitrate readings to monitor it closely. (I have Seacham alerts for ph and ammonia to monitor those levels, and Red Sea tests for nitrite and nitrate.)

NOTE: I had been doing weekly H2O changes in the 10 gallon tank and twice a week changes in the 5 gallon tank. But now I think I'll up the rate in the 10 gallon tank to twice a week and the 5 gallon tank to 3 times a week. It's no big deal and I think it'll help the fish out. (I pre-heat the water in 5 gallon Home Depot buckets to match the tank temperature of 78.8. and pour the new water in using a 4 cup measuring cup to try to make the water changes as stress free as possible. Then I feed them so they associate a good thing with the somewhat disruptive water changes. They are extremely food-driven so now they appear to look forward to the water changes.)

 

[Sgooosh]

I have to respond to this post (I joined the forum just to respond). I have 2 betta tanks, a 5 gallon and a 10 gallon (for a giant betta), with 1 fish in each tank. Silk plants. Water temp 78.8 degrees. 2 Aquarium Co-op nano sponge filters in each tank.

The tanks are both cycled and have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, a ph of around 7.4, and, up until a few weeks ago nitrates of 5-7.5ppm-15ppm (max). Herein lies the rub...my TAP water has a nitrate level of around 5-7.5ppm. I just reconfirmed/tested it. So obviously just doing water changes, no matter how frequently, wasn't going to do anything about the nitrates because my tap water had a bottom ceiling of 5-7.5ppm.

Last week my giant betta got a little feisty and decided to jump out of his tank during feeding time (I have a glass top on both tanks but lifted up the lid to feed him and he got a little too excited.) I was able to quickly get him back into his tank but freaked when I read that he probably lost a lot of his slime coating as a result of the fall. So I ran up to Petco and grabbed a bottle of API Stress Coat (up until that point I'd been using Prime.) I did a 50% water change but instead of using Prime I used API Stress Coat.

Also, in the 5 gallon tank my rose petal guy had either ornament-related torn fins, self-inflicted/bitten torn fins, or fin rot. This occurred a few weeks ago and I'd started a regimen of daily 50% water changes, even though, to my mind, it was pointless because the water parameters were already spot-on. Since I'd gotten the Stress Coat I decided to use it instead of the Prime to see if that would help with his fin regrowth, so the last couple of water changes involved Stress Coat instead of Prime.

Yesterday I tested the 5 gallon tank for nitrates. For the first time EVER the level was at 0-2ppm, instead of 5-7.5ppm. I figured I did something wrong with the chemicals/testing so I repeated it. Again...0-2ppm for nitrates.

Today I did a 40% water change today in the 10 gallon tank, waited an hour or so, and tested for nitrates. 0-2ppm! I was thinking...WTH?!!! So I just re-tested my tap water to see if maybe something had changed, but nothing had changed; it's still 5-7.5ppm for nitrates. The ONLY difference was the Stress Coat.

So I Googled to see if somehow Stress Coat helped in the reduction of nitrates and found this thread. I know this is only anecdotal "evidence" and not scientific in any way, but there is no doubt that:

1. My tap water is a constant 5-7.5ppm for nitrates.
2. Up until I started using Stress Coat the lowest reading I found for nitrates was 5-7.5ppm.

What I don't know is if this is a temporary reduction or not. But still, I'm much more in favor of a lower nitrate level so I intend to keep using the Stress Coat and do daily nitrate readings to monitor it closely. (I have Seacham alerts for ph and ammonia to monitor those levels, and Red Sea tests for nitrite and nitrate.)

NOTE: I had been doing weekly H2O changes in the 10 gallon tank and twice a week changes in the 5 gallon tank. But now I think I'll up the rate in the 10 gallon tank to twice a week and the 5 gallon tank to 3 times a week. It's no big deal and I think it'll help the fish out. (I pre-heat the water in 5 gallon Home Depot buckets to match the tank temperature of 78.8. and pour the new water in using a 4 cup measuring cup to try to make the water changes as stress free as possible. Then I feed them so they associate a good thing with the somewhat disruptive water changes. They are extremely food-driven so now they appear to look forward to the water changes.)

welcome lol
that is very cool!

 

[Sam042955]

welcome lol
that is very cool!

Thanks. This seems like a very good forum. And yes, it's cool, but somewhat confounding since, as others have pointed out, there doesn't appear to be anything in the Stress Coat that could possibly reduce nitrates, but the testing kit doesn't lie. So it's really puzzling.

 

[Sam042955]

Update 2/1/22: Just out of curiosity I decided to test the two 5 gallon buckets I keep filled with water and a heater for water changes. They have several drops of Prime and also 5ml of Stress Coat (and no, I've never seen any ammonia whatsoever using the combination of Prime and Stress coat). They were 0-2ppm for nitrates, while my tap water (which is city tap water, around 150 TDS and relatively highly rated when they do state-wide municipal water ratings) remains 5-7.5ppm. So there is DEFINITELY something going on with Stress Coat and lower nitrate levels, at least for me.

(And when I didn't use stress coat, and only Prime, the nitrate levels never went below 5-7.5. So the only untested variable is Stress Coat without any Prime. I might do a test like that the next time I empty a 5 gallon bucket for a water change. If I see an increase in nitrates then the key would have to be combining Prime and Stress Coat.)

At least now I know that if I want the lowest possible nitrates for my guys I will have to do at least 2x/week water changes with Stress Coat, either with or without Prime. (The highest the nitrates ever got was 15-20ppm, so it was never a major problem, but if I can keep them below 5ppm by doing more water changes then that makes the most sense to me so I can give my guys the best possible water parameters/living conditions.)

 

[Slaphppy7]

Stress Coat contains aloe vera....not good for fish

 

[Byron]

Update 2/1/22: Just out of curiosity I decided to test the two 5 gallon buckets I keep filled with water and a heater for water changes. They have several drops of Prime and also 5ml of Stress Coat (and no, I've never seen any ammonia whatsoever using the combination of Prime and Stress coat). They were 0-2ppm for nitrates, while my tap water (which is city tap water, around 150 TDS and relatively highly rated when they do state-wide municipal water ratings) remains 5-7.5ppm. So there is DEFINITELY something going on with Stress Coat and lower nitrate levels, at least for me.

(And when I didn't use stress coat, and only Prime, the nitrate levels never went below 5-7.5. So the only untested variable is Stress Coat without any Prime. I might do a test like that the next time I empty a 5 gallon bucket for a water change. If I see an increase in nitrates then the key would have to be combining Prime and Stress Coat.)

At least now I know that if I want the lowest possible nitrates for my guys I will have to do at least 2x/week water changes with Stress Coat, either with or without Prime. (The highest the nitrates ever got was 15-20ppm, so it was never a major problem, but if I can keep them below 5ppm by doing more water changes then that makes the most sense to me so I can give my guys the best possible water parameters/living conditions.)

I cannot explain the lower nitrate with StressCoat, but if this were factual (meaning, the Stress Coat lowers nitrate, there are still other possibles at play) we would all know it, as API would have a gold mine with their product.

I would also mention that Prime does detoxify nitrate, for 24-36 hours, though the nitrate will still show as "nitrate" with most aquarium tests. But presumably it is non-toxic during this period.

But the other thing that bothers me, and this is quite significant, is the use of a risky product to solve (maybe) another issue, creating a worse one in the end. I certainly maintain that the lowest nitrate is better for fish, but is the minimal drop from 5 or 6 or even 7 ppm nitrate down to 2 ppm nitrate, really enough to risk the fish using Stress Coat? The aloe vera in SC is a serious risk to the gills of fish. It is unadvisable to use water additives that contain Aloe vera extract or CMC in closed holding systems due to the potential for these additional organic wastes to reduce water quality and oxygen levels. However, these organic materials likely do not have a negative effect on water quality or oxygen levels in open, flow-through holding or transport systems.

See "A review of polymer-based water conditioners for reduction of handling-related injury," Ryan A. Harnish, Alison H. Colotelo, and Richard S. Brown, Reviews in Fish Biology and Fisheries (2011).

 

[AbbeysDad]

Like Byron, I am very skeptical of any additive that truly reduces nitrates. If there was such a thing, as Byron points out, as word spread like wild fire, every single hobbyist would be using it and the manufacturer would have a gold mine!!!
I also agree with Byron about aloe vera not to mention any additive that invades the fish through osmosis. Fish in the wild don't need 'skin/scale' conditioners and it's more than likely that such a substance interferes with gill efficiency. Even if not harmful, I suggest that it's just not necessary. The very best medicine is clean, fresh water!

 

[Sam042955]

Stress Coat contains aloe vera....not good for fish

I've seen varying opinions on that one.

 

[Sam042955]

I cannot explain the lower nitrate with StressCoat, but if this were factual (meaning, the Stress Coat lowers nitrate, there are still other possibles at play) we would all know it, as API would have a gold mine with their product.

I would also mention that Prime does detoxify nitrate, for 24-36 hours, though the nitrate will still show as "nitrate" with most aquarium tests. But presumably it is non-toxic during this period.

But the other thing that bothers me, and this is quite significant, is the use of a risky product to solve (maybe) another issue, creating a worse one in the end. I certainly maintain that the lowest nitrate is better for fish, but is the minimal drop from 5 or 6 or even 7 ppm nitrate down to 2 ppm nitrate, really enough to risk the fish using Stress Coat? The aloe vera in SC is a serious risk to the gills of fish. It is unadvisable to use water additives that contain Aloe vera extract or CMC in closed holding systems due to the potential for these additional organic wastes to reduce water quality and oxygen levels. However, these organic materials likely do not have a negative effect on water quality or oxygen levels in open, flow-through holding or transport systems.

See "A review of polymer-based water conditioners for reduction of handling-related injury," Ryan A. Harnish, Alison H. Colotelo, and Richard S. Brown, Reviews in Fish Biology and Fisheries (2011).

It all depends upon whether or not one views Stress Coat as helpful or harmful. As I stated to AbbeysDad I've seen very divergent views on the aloe in Stress Coat. Some people rave about it and recommend it highly for bettas, while others condemn it soundly. If it turns out that the aloe is harmful then clearly it is not worth the slight ppm reduction in nitrates.

(And I've never seen that Prime has any effect on nitrates, only ammonia and nitrites, for 24-48 hours, biding them and rendering them harmless, or at least less harmful.)

What I might do is fill one bucket with Prime only and one bucket with Stress Coat only, to be somewhat scientific about it. (Although before I started using Stress Coat I only used Prime and never noticed any reduction in nitrates.) It's simply uncanny that even though there's nothing to explain why the nitrates are clearly lower when using Stress Coat, the tests do not lie. I've repeated them several times and the results are repeatable, both with my untreated tap water (I thought maybe they'd started filtering out the nitrates but they hadn't) and with the water treated with Stress Coat and Prime. I will update after I do the Stress Coat only test and the Prime only test.

And thanks for the responses. It's an on-going learning experience. There's a ton of industry hype for a lot of these products and it's hard to sort through.

NOTE: I did read the pdf of that article and I don't know if you read all of it or not but it clearly states that most studies HAVE found conditioners to be helpful, while citing one study (Cooke, et. al) that raised some questions. And with regard to aloe vera specifically, the one study that showed it to be harmful to the gills of tilapia used a concentration of 50ppm. (And the MAIN concern was the potential negative impact on water conditions, not gill damage.) Whether or not Stress Coat is harmful to fish would depend upon what concentration of aloe vera is used. And the conclusion was that comparative research is needed, whether it's for aloe based conditioners or polymer based conditioners.

Finally, it could be argued that if these products are as harmful as some people claim they would be removed from the market.

 

[Sam042955]

Like Byron, I am very skeptical of any additive that truly reduces nitrates. If there was such a thing, as Byron points out, as word spread like wild fire, every single hobbyist would be using it and the manufacturer would have a gold mine!!!
I also agree with Byron about aloe vera not to mention any additive that invades the fish through osmosis. Fish in the wild don't need 'skin/scale' conditioners and it's more than likely that such a substance interferes with gill efficiency. Even if not harmful, I suggest that it's just not necessary. The very best medicine is clean, fresh water!

I agree in principle, but my water isn't all that clean. Therein lies the rub. It's not toxic, and there's no ammonia in it, but out of the tap it's 5-7.5ppm nitrate, and while that's basically inconsequential, it's not 0.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I agree in principle, but my water isn't all that clean. Therein lies the rub. It's not toxic, and there's no ammonia in it, but out of the tap it's 5-7.5ppm nitrate, and while that's basically inconsequential, it's not 0.

I am no stranger to high nitrates in source water (see My Nitrate Fight!). But that doesn't diminish the skepticism over additives believed or perceived to reduce or eliminate nitrates...I just don't believe such a product exists.
And frankly, you may well be better off with higher nitrates than using a product with other additives like aloe vera that may be even more harmful. (just my $.02)

 

[Sam042955]

I am no stranger to high nitrates in source water (see My Nitrate Fight!). But that doesn't diminish the skepticism over additives believed or perceived to reduce or eliminate nitrates...I just don't believe such a product exists.
And frankly, you may well be better off with higher nitrates than using a product with other additives like aloe vera that may be even more harmful. (just my $.02)

Hey...I was beyond skeptical -- I was in shock when I got the Red Sea nitrate results. I retested multiple times, figuring I HAD to have made a mistake. I mean...it just wasn't possible. But after multiple tests, the tests are accurate and they don't lie. The nitrates were reduced. Period. Remember...I didn't get Stress Coat to reduce nitrates -- I got it to help heal the damaged fins on my rose petal betta. I didn't even find out about the nitrate reduction until after I did a nitrate test, kind of just for being able to say I tested for nitrates. And when I saw the clear, instead of the pink/fuchsia water in the bottle, I figured something was wrong with my testing procedure. So I repeated. And repeated. And kept getting the same results.

As far as Stress Coat+ goes...the University of Georgia tested it and found it to be helpful in fish who had damaged fins and/or scales. But SeaChem StressGuard seems to get higher ratings. So I might look into that product. As I stated at the outset, there are clearly conflicting "truths" about a lot of things related to fish keeping. And water conditioners are at the top of the list.

But the biggest thing, which I really haven't stressed, is that my rose petal betta looks much better. He's active and interactive, and his fin regrowth has kicked in. I give a lot of the credit to the daily water change regimen but also to the Stress Coat. (NOTE: I read a review of StressGuard that a guy had gotten for his rose petal betta and I agree with his sentiment -- they are NOT the preferred bettas. They are way too prone to fin damage. It's like they are saddled with 20 hula hoops and it impedes their ability to swim normally, and they just shred their fins like nobody's business.)

 

[itiwhetu]

As I stated at the outset, there are clearly conflicting "truths" about a lot of things related to fish keeping. And water conditioners are at the top of the list.

I Can't agree more, with the above statement. Water conditioners are one of the great mysteries to me.

 

[Byron]

Finally, it could be argued that if these products are as harmful as some people claim they would be removed from the market.

I cannot accept this argument, because I don't think there is anyone in the hobby willing to spend the (probably) millions of dollars to take one of the manufacturers to court, or find the evidence to do so. API and Seachem are trusted names in the hobby, and produce a number of truly beneficial products. But both also produce some products which no aquarist should ever use.

I do not endorse the use of any additive or substance unless it is vitally necessary to save the fish from something. All substances dissolved or mixed in the tank water have the risk of entering the fish as the fish continually takes in water via osmosis, and provided the substance can diffuse across the cell membranes. This means the substance is in the fish's bloodstream being carried to internal organs. There is also the risk occurring in the gills from these. This is harmful to fish to some degree, be it immediate or, as with the substances under discussion here, down the road. Fish will always be healthier with fewer such substances, because that means less problems with disease and other issues going forward. It is a long-term "big picture" approach.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Finally, it could be argued that if these products are as harmful as some people claim they would be removed from the market.

To my knowledge, there is no FDA for pet products so as long as these products sell and make money, they're staying on the shelf. Like so much marketing hype and caring hobbyists that think they're doing the best they can....Well there you go!
The 'problem' is that many of these products are in low concentrations so as not to kill livestock outright, but cause a slow discomfort and long term damage.
Not to nit pick, but I simply believe that additives are just not necessary and often cause more harm than good. But it's up to every serious hobbyist to evaluate and make informed decisions on what's best for the critters s/he is the caretaker of.