Possible?

[prios]

If I just use a "live" sand substrate, would it be possible to run a saltwater tank? That's all I want, just sand and water, no rocks, corals etc etc . I'd use a skimmer and a good filter and do weekly water changes of course ...is this doable in a 29 gallon?

 

[Aquascaper]

It's do-able but the fish won't like it, no cover and no territory.

Using absolutly no rock whatsoever will put a huge load on the filtration as well which will mean water quality will be a real battle.

I personally have never seen a bare tank except in an LFS

 

[prios]

It's do-able but the fish won't like it, no cover and no territory.

Using absolutly no rock whatsoever will put a huge load on the filtration as well which will mean water quality will be a real battle.

I personally have never seen a bare tank except in an LFS

Sorry, I should have mentioned decorations. There will be plenty of cover for them and I plan on using the best filtration I can find.

 

[Matthew5664]

if you want just sand and fish with decor you could use a sump and fill it with LR and have a higher that normal flow through it.

 

[Aquascaper]

Well it depends on waht you mean by 'decorations'

If you mean those awful plastic pirate ships, sunken submarines, etc. then i'll bow out as I hate them and have never seen a decent looking setup done with them. I prefer to keep fish in a natural habitat and that, I feel, is the challenge. Anyone can keep a fish alive but to maintain (as close as possible) it's natural habitat as well is a skill.

Each to their own, I would hold it against you

 

[prios]

I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for holding those against me! I hate them myself.
I currently run several freshwater tanks and keep them as natural as possible with plants, bogwood and rock. What I'm looking to do here is get the marine tank looking the way I want and not be forced to go with a certain look because I have no choice. By that I mean using 25/30lbs of live rock, the size shape and condition of which I have no control over.
I was thinking of using a canister filter like a magnum350(or better) with the guts removed and packed with small pieces of live rock instead of a sump. Another 350 for ordinary filtration and a protein skimmer with weekly water changes. That would handle my needs in a 29 gallon eh? Though, if I can find smaller pieces of live rock that I can shape to my own liking, I can certainly add about 5 or 10lbs in the tank too.
As for decorations, I was thinking of feather rock which can be easily drilled and shaped with caves and flowthrough to my liking and so-called cichlid stones which are small, gray ceramic caves with holes in them for shelter. There won't be any sunken ships or aircraft!
I'm more of a fish guy than a reef guy. Corals, anemone, and the like don't interest me.
What do you think?

E.T.A: I plan on using black tahitian moon sand, seeded with a few pounds of live sand.
E.T.A: Forget the feather rock, just learned it's a bad idea.

 

[Aquascaper]

It's all 'do-able' but you will encounter problems with certain things that you want to do.

I would gut both filters and use them packed with live rock as a start off, forget the mechanical filtration as it will just produce Nitrates at an alarming rate, something which saltwater fish will not tolerate. Skimming and regular partial water changes will take care of the rest if use in conjunction with the live rock filters.

With regards to the feather rock (lava rock), although it is porus and will therefore provide some bacterial filtration over time, it will not offer any pH buffering capabilities and if used along with black tahitian moon sand, again which has no buffering capabilities, you may find it difficult to maintain a stable high pH that is required for saltwater fish.

I personally would fill both filters with live rock and have an aragonite sand substrate. Add some feather rock but gradually replace it with live rock as and when you find nice pieces, in the long run this will benefit your tank and fish enormously. Although you say you're not into corals, etc. you will find that live rock will sprout life giving the tank a more natural feel for free and at no extra effort to you. You will need clean-up crew (a mix of around 30 snails and crabs) to help maintain the tank and proper live rock will offer the perfect back-drop to them as they roam around.

If you can't find nice live rock you can always make your own, that way you can have the exact look to the tank you want. All that is required once its made is a few pieces of mature live rock to help seed it.

HTH

 

[SkiFletch]

Well, depending on how much you want it to look "your way" and how much patience you have, you might want to check out garf.org and try making your own liverocks

 

[Aquascaper]

See, now I couldn't remember the link for that site

 

[prios]

It's all 'do-able' but you will encounter problems with certain things that you want to do.

I would gut both filters and use them packed with live rock as a start off, forget the mechanical filtration as it will just produce Nitrates at an alarming rate, something which saltwater fish will not tolerate. Skimming and regular partial water changes will take care of the rest if use in conjunction with the live rock filters.

With regards to the feather rock (lava rock), although it is porus and will therefore provide some bacterial filtration over time, it will not offer any pH buffering capabilities and if used along with black tahitian moon sand, again which has no buffering capabilities, you may find it difficult to maintain a stable high pH that is required for saltwater fish.

I personally would fill both filters with live rock and have an aragonite sand substrate. Add some feather rock but gradually replace it with live rock as and when you find nice pieces, in the long run this will benefit your tank and fish enormously. Although you say you're not into corals, etc. you will find that live rock will sprout life giving the tank a more natural feel for free and at no extra effort to you. You will need clean-up crew (a mix of around 30 snails and crabs) to help maintain the tank and proper live rock will offer the perfect back-drop to them as they roam around.

If you can't find nice live rock you can always make your own, that way you can have the exact look to the tank you want. All that is required once its made is a few pieces of mature live rock to help seed it.

HTH

You're basically saying that the filters one would normally use on a freshwater tank are unnecessary on a saltwater setup, correct? That the live rock is the single most important item I need for filtration(along with skimming, water changes). Got it.
As for sand, is there such a thing as black marine sand or are my choices limited?
I know it's a good thing for the live rock to sprout things and have no problem with that but if I do place a bunch inside the canisters, will that be a problem for them or do they need to be in the tank itself.
By the way, I appreciate the responses.

 

[prios]

A few more questions if you don't mind....

1. Is there such a thing as saltwater-specific heaters or will any brand suffice?
2. Airstones, are they even used in marine tanks?
3. P.h., how is it controlled? naturally by the sand and live rock or with the use of additives?
4. Temperature. I keep my freshwater tanks at 78-81f. I assume this is o.k for saltwater?
5. Powerheads, where should they be aimed specifically?(I don't use them in freshwater)
6. Lighting. As said, I prefer fish over coral so regular aquarium lighting should be fine for viewing, correct?
7. Anaerobic bacteria in the sandbed. Is this a possible problem as with freshwater or are there creatures from the live rock that will eventually handle it?
8. Power outage. When conducting maint. on my freshwater tanks, I shut off the power to everything except the airstones until the water changes, gravel vac. and any other tasks need to be completed. Will a short power outage, say, half an hour, be a problem in a marine tank? I wouldn't think so...but...I'm new at this one.
9. Does live rock require a set length of time for lighting throughout the day?
10. Marine-specific Bio-Spera. Worth a purchase?

Thanks to anyone who answers! Again, it's very much appreciated.

 

[Aquascaper]

A few more questions if you don't mind....

1. Is there such a thing as saltwater-specific heaters or will any brand suffice?
2. Airstones, are they even used in marine tanks?
3. P.h., how is it controlled? naturally by the sand and live rock or with the use of additives?
4. Temperature. I keep my freshwater tanks at 78-81f. I assume this is o.k for saltwater?
5. Powerheads, where should they be aimed specifically?(I don't use them in freshwater)
6. Lighting. As said, I prefer fish over coral so regular aquarium lighting should be fine for viewing, correct?
7. Anaerobic bacteria in the sandbed. Is this a possible problem as with freshwater or are there creatures from the live rock that will eventually handle it?
8. Power outage. When conducting maint. on my freshwater tanks, I shut off the power to everything except the airstones until the water changes, gravel vac. and any other tasks need to be completed. Will a short power outage, say, half an hour, be a problem in a marine tank? I wouldn't think so...but...I'm new at this one.
9. Does live rock require a set length of time for lighting throughout the day?
10. Marine-specific Bio-Spera. Worth a purchase?

Thanks to anyone who answers! Again, it's very much appreciated.

Ok, from the first post - There is no black marine sand that will provide pH buffering capabilities as most black sands are from volcanic rock (igneous) which is basically inert.
Any live rock you put into a cannister filter in the dark will provide the same level of filtration as if it were in the main tank as its the bacteria, not the surface life, that does the work. Anything on the live rock will just die off except sponges and filter feeders.

Now, from this post -

1) Any aquarium heater will do, I personally use Jager (by Eheim)

2) Some people use airstones but they are not necessary really unless you have an enclosed tank, ie. with no overflow to remove surface scum. However, most people just use a powerhead to break the surface as air bubbles tend to stick to the live rock, etc. and loos a mess.

3) pH in a saltwater tank is buffered by the slow release of calcium carbonates from the rock and substrate which is why aragonite, crushed coral, etc. is favoured as a substrate rather than inert sands. There is addatives that can help raise or lower pH if required but, in general, a pH of between 8.1 and 8.4 is sufficient. It is usually better to just stick with a pH you can keep stable than to constantly be adjusting it, livestock, if properly acclimatised to your conditions, with be fine.

4) Temperature is normally kept betwen 72f - 78f for a saltwater tank but saying that, the average temperature on a natural reef is about 82f so, again, if properly acclimatised, livestock will be mostly fine. The key is stablility, if you can keep parameters stable then you shouldn't have many problems even if they are slightly off 'perfect'.

5) Positioning of powerheads is entirely down to the layout of rockwork and the tank inhabitants. The idea is to eliminate dead spots where water can eddy and therefore stagnate, as live rock requires good flow to aid it's filtration action you want the water to be moving all over and around it for best results. As it's a small tank you won't be housing any big open water swimmers so you can get away without having a fast flow going one way (Tangs like to swim against the flow like this) so anything is going to be fine as long as its everywhere. The aim is for around x20 the tank volume in flow, which in your case would be around 600gph.

6) To light the tank ou will need a minimum of one marine white light and one actinic blue light (T8's are fine for a fish-only setup). The white for obvious reasons and the actinic blue to bring out the colours of the fish.

7) As long as the substrate is kept below 3" then anaerobic conditions occuring should not be a problem. The use of sand sifting inverts like snails and the inevitable bristleworms will help to keep the substrate mixed. The finer the grade of particle the more chance of anaerobic conditions arising due to compaction of the substrate so say away from 'sugar sand'.

8) I personally don't turn the power off to the tank ever. If it makes you feel safer then turn off everything apart from the filtration and powerheads (wire these separate from anything else to aid this process). Water movement is the key to your filtration so stopping that should not be done unless really necesssary.

9) Live rock doesn't require set lighting times however the fish will. They are no different to freshwater fish in that they need a day and night sequence to feel comfortable. The only way that lighting would become an issue is if you introduced corals to the tank, that's a whole different ball game though.

10) No. Good quality live rock will have copious amounts of bacteria in it and that would be a better way to spend your money.

 

[Tartan]

A few more questions if you don't mind....

1. Is there such a thing as saltwater-specific heaters or will any brand suffice?
2. Airstones, are they even used in marine tanks?
3. P.h., how is it controlled? naturally by the sand and live rock or with the use of additives?
4. Temperature. I keep my freshwater tanks at 78-81f. I assume this is o.k for saltwater?
5. Powerheads, where should they be aimed specifically?(I don't use them in freshwater)
6. Lighting. As said, I prefer fish over coral so regular aquarium lighting should be fine for viewing, correct?
7. Anaerobic bacteria in the sandbed. Is this a possible problem as with freshwater or are there creatures from the live rock that will eventually handle it?
8. Power outage. When conducting maint. on my freshwater tanks, I shut off the power to everything except the airstones until the water changes, gravel vac. and any other tasks need to be completed. Will a short power outage, say, half an hour, be a problem in a marine tank? I wouldn't think so...but...I'm new at this one.
9. Does live rock require a set length of time for lighting throughout the day?
10. Marine-specific Bio-Spera. Worth a purchase?

Thanks to anyone who answers! Again, it's very much appreciated.

Ok, from the first post - There is no black marine sand that will provide pH buffering capabilities as most black sands are from volcanic rock (igneous) which is basically inert.
Any live rock you put into a cannister filter in the dark will provide the same level of filtration as if it were in the main tank as its the bacteria, not the surface life, that does the work. Anything on the live rock will just die off except sponges and filter feeders.

Now, from this post -

1) Any aquarium heater will do, I personally use Jager (by Eheim)

2) Some people use airstones but they are not necessary really unless you have an enclosed tank, ie. with no overflow to remove surface scum. However, most people just use a powerhead to break the surface as air bubbles tend to stick to the live rock, etc. and loos a mess.

3) pH in a saltwater tank is buffered by the slow release of calcium carbonates from the rock and substrate which is why aragonite, crushed coral, etc. is favoured as a substrate rather than inert sands. There is addatives that can help raise or lower pH if required but, in general, a pH of between 8.1 and 8.4 is sufficient. It is usually better to just stick with a pH you can keep stable than to constantly be adjusting it, livestock, if properly acclimatised to your conditions, with be fine.

4) Temperature is normally kept betwen 72f - 78f for a saltwater tank but saying that, the average temperature on a natural reef is about 82f so, again, if properly acclimatised, livestock will be mostly fine. The key is stablility, if you can keep parameters stable then you shouldn't have many problems even if they are slightly off 'perfect'.

5) Positioning of powerheads is entirely down to the layout of rockwork and the tank inhabitants. The idea is to eliminate dead spots where water can eddy and therefore stagnate, as live rock requires good flow to aid it's filtration action you want the water to be moving all over and around it for best results. As it's a small tank you won't be housing any big open water swimmers so you can get away without having a fast flow going one way (Tangs like to swim against the flow like this) so anything is going to be fine as long as its everywhere. The aim is for around x20 the tank volume in flow, which in your case would be around 600gph.

6) To light the tank ou will need a minimum of one marine white light and one actinic blue light (T8's are fine for a fish-only setup). The white for obvious reasons and the actinic blue to bring out the colours of the fish.

7) As long as the substrate is kept below 3" then anaerobic conditions occuring should not be a problem. The use of sand sifting inverts like snails and the inevitable bristleworms will help to keep the substrate mixed. The finer the grade of particle the more chance of anaerobic conditions arising due to compaction of the substrate so say away from 'sugar sand'.

8) I personally don't turn the power off to the tank ever. If it makes you feel safer then turn off everything apart from the filtration and powerheads (wire these separate from anything else to aid this process). Water movement is the key to your filtration so stopping that should not be done unless really necesssary.

9) Live rock doesn't require set lighting times however the fish will. They are no different to freshwater fish in that they need a day and night sequence to feel comfortable. The only way that lighting would become an issue is if you introduced corals to the tank, that's a whole different ball game though.

10) No. Good quality live rock will have copious amounts of bacteria in it and that would be a better way to spend your money.

Thanks for that answer. It helped me a great deal and gave me some ideas...very much appreciated.

 

[prios]

Question about live rock...
I f I purchase live rock from a store's storage tank and it takes about 30 mins to get it home, can it go right into the tank or does it have to be cured outside the tank for a length of time?
What I'd like to do is get the live sand and live rock in the tank at the same time and start the cycle right away.

 

[SkiFletch]

since you're starting up your tank from scratch and dont have life in there now, yes, go ahead and put the LR straight into the tank along with the LS. Make sure your temp and salinity are OK. You'll have some dieoff and your ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates will rise as the rock cures. Then, when ammonia and nitrites are zero, do a water change to get the nitrates low and you should be good