pH Problem

[dixaisy930]

I recently had my tank water tested by three seperate lfs today because of all the recent fish deaths in my tank. Everything came back fine, except at one lfs my pH was around 8.2 The other two lfs said the pH was "neutral", but I don't know if 8.2 is included in that. I know 8.2 is a little high, but could that cause the death of 13 in one week?

I really would rather not mess with the pH at all (especially since I've never had a problem with it before). But if it's a probable cause for massive fish deaths, I'd like to fix it. I saw a few products that claim to make the pH 7.0.....if I do have to mess with the pH, should I use one of these, or should I use something like pH Down?

 

[konrad05]

If you play with the products that bring your pH down or up, you're looking at possible algae blooms due to the phosphates. 8.2 is not neutral at all, unless you're keeping like, cichilds. Regular tropical pH should be 6.8-7.5 IMO, so I would I say pH is doing the killing unless there's another underlying factors...

 

[dixaisy930]

Some of the fish have been in this pH level for months (some a month or two, and others have been in it for over six months). Would the pH take that long to kill them?

What's the best way to lower the pH?

 

[konrad05]

If you have plants, CO2 !! But then you have to maintain it, which could be a headache and costly. What is your tap water pH?

 

[dixaisy930]

I've never tested straight tap water, but the lady who said my pH was 8.2 said that it was probably 8.2 out of the tap as well. Supposively Colorado's water is high ph?!?! I didn't think it was possible to have that high a pH straight from the tap.

I do have live plants...

Is 7.6 considered neutral? When I personally tested my pH today, it said 7.6.

 

[konrad05]

Neutral pH is 7 on the scale. 7.6 isn't that bad, I'm sure the LFS's tests were off. I would test the tap and compare to tank. Then maybe read up on adding CO2 if you're really that concerned about dropping pH. It would also be beneficial to your plants

 

[Bignose]

A pH of 7.0 is neutral. pH can vary quite a bit out of the tap... and if you measure directly out of the tap, dissolved CO2 in the tap water can artificially lower the pH. To wit, my tap water tests at 7.0-7.4ish, but if you sit it out a day or agitate it (so that the CO2 outgasses) it is consistently 8.2-8.4. There are few people whose water out of the tap tests 8.8 to 9.0, so 8.2 is not outrageous at all.

Most fish, if acclimated right, will be more than happy in a pH of 8.2. It is far, far, far more crucial to keep a steady pH than a pH in a certain range. Unless you have an exceptionally delicate fish (I am thinking of discus as an example -- this is where research pays off) it is a changing pH that can kill the fish more than keeping fish in a pH that may not be ideal, but is steady. This is the far greater danger of using pH down chemicals and the like -- it takes a lot of the chemical to adjust hard water, you have to do it with every water change, and you have to test very frequently. If you really want to lower your pH, filtering the water through peat or buying/generating R/O water is the way to go.

But, let me tell you a success story. As I said above, my pH is steady at 8.4. I keep tiger barbs, lemon tetras, scissortail rasboras, aeneus and trilineous cory cats -- all of which have spawned at various time -- and all of which 8.4 is above their "ideal pH range" from any profile I've seen on the web or in books. But, the pH is steady, I do frequent water changes, I let the water sit out a day before using it for the water change so that the pH is exactly the same as the tank water, etc.

If the fish have been in that water for months and happy, they have acclimated. I would look to some other cause for the deaths. It is possible that your city's water is being treated differently or maybe even from a different source. Have you added any new fish? decorations? changed food or water conditioners? Have you medicated for anything recently? Might you have done filter maintenence and possibly destroyed your bilogical filter? Have you accidently spilled, even a tiny amount, of a cleaner or any other foreign substance in the tank? Has anyone else, like a child or a tanksitter? And finally, are the ammonia and nitrite readings consistently 0, and the nitrates low (<60 ish)?

 

[Tenko]

Good advice Bignose. In my experience I only buy from lfs that keep their fish in similar water conditions to mine. Basically, my tapwater ph is about 8.2 with very high gh and kh. As a beginner I was concerned about these levels as all the books made me think the fish would die very quickly in those conditions.

However, my favourite lfs advised me not to bother with their ph adjustment products as they often do more harm than good (I did ask why they bothered stocking them). They use the same water supply as me, therefore their fish are kept in identical water conditions.

Basically, I believe it's more important to match the water parameters of your lfs, than what a book says. Anyway, the books usually advise the natural living condions of fish, most lfs in the UK sell captive bred fish who are used to different conditions anyway.

 

[Bignose]

Exactly, Tenko. Here in the States, Florida has become prominent in the aquarium fish hatchery business -- and Florida is basically the definition of hard, alkaline water. But these same businesses can mass produce neon tetras. Neon tetras are from some of the softest, most acidic water -- and they are spawning!

This is where research becomes the most important -- and then taking the time to properly acclimate the fish to your tank water. Cardinal tetras, which are almost always wild caught from the soft, acidic waters, require a little more care and time acclimating than a tank-bred fish that has lived its entire life in harder, alkaline water. Nonetheless, many people have kept cardinal tetras in their hard water just fine -- it primarily comes down to keeping the pH constant, than a specific value.

 

[dixaisy930]

Thank you for all of the advice...I bought a new test today because I realized that my old one only went up to 7.6 ) So the new test said 7.8-8.0 For some reason that sounds better to me than 8.2

I was worrying about the pH all day...I had always been under the impression (like you guys had said) that a stable pH is most important. I really don't think that pH is/was the cause. I think it's best I just leave it alone...it's alot more complicated and nerve wracking then what I'm capable of. I really don't have any sensitive fish, like discus, so it really shouldn't be a problem.

As for the cause of massive deaths, I'm still stumped. I've had my water tested four different times, and the readings are ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and nitrate 20. I'm always really careful about not using any chemicals near the tank, and so forth. I haven't added any new fish for about a month, but I suppose it might have taken something that long to start killing fish. Right now I'm treating with MelaFix and PimaFix, and it seems to be helping (although the only visable signs of disease were two mollys that had mouth fungus, but no one else that died, or is still in the tank has shown any signs of it).

It's frustrating...it would almost be better if my water tests showed something, or there would signs of something wrong, then I would know what to fix. *sigh*

Just me ranting....

 

[zerothemouse]

Hi Everyone,

A couple things outside the box. What is the temperature of your tank? How many fish do you have, what kind of fish and what size tank? Are you using a dechlore product that will take care of chlorine as well as chloramine?

You mentioned that you had mollies. I think mollies thrive best in brackish water. Someone who knows more about them than I might want to comment on whether a lack of salt could kill them after a few months?

Depending on the size of the fish some disease may be difficult to detect. Have you looked closely at all of your fish to make sure they are not infected with the same fungus that you Mollies are?

mouse

 

[dixaisy930]

Tank temp is around 74.....I have around 20 fish...they include danios, mollys, platys, otos, marbled hatchetfish, neons, and just one kuhli now. The tank is 60 gallons. I use AquaSafe (I believe that takes care of both?).

The one molly I had for over two years, and never had salt in the tank.

I've been looking really closely especially on the mouth (since the mollies had mouth fungus)...I've also been inspecting the gills really well, the fins and tails, and just giving the bodies a general overview, and I still see nothing...

I spend alot (most) of my free time inspecting and watching these darn fish to get some clue...