pH, KH & GH

[itiwhetu]

Out of interest. Why is it recommended to go online and take the water company's figures? Surely it would make more sense just to test the water coming out of your tap.
The water companies could easily be lying to make their water look better than it is.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Out of interest. Why is it recommended to go online and take the water company's figures? Surely it would make more sense just to test the water coming out of your tap.
The water companies could easily be lying to make their water look better than it is.

You are absolutely right.

Since @Lynnzer had tested the water GH, KH, pH, why don't you use the results instead of the website results?

 

[Lynnzer]

Isn't it a bugger when you get something on your mind that keeps you awake at night. However that's sometimes just what I need. I have given much thought to the problem in my sleep and I think I have something of an answer to it.

I know that a cup of coffee leaves calcium residue in my cup, the rim of the fishtanks has a line of calcium from the evaporation, and the kettle has loads on the heater elements.

Given that, I wondered if boiling the water would reduce the readings for hardness etc.
I have now got out of bed and used the water still in the kettle from last night and tested it. WOW.......
What a difference. The pH is much the same but KH has dropped from 19 to 8 and the GH has gone from 20 to 10.
Can someone else carry out the same tests to see if they get similar results please.

Next thing I'm doing is buying bottled water and testing that to compare.

RO would be ideal however I don't want any unit plumbed in so that all the household water is filtered. So much waste with that. I have an external tap on the kitchen wall that I would be able to adapt for a unit if needed but I'll see what the boiled water solution is like first.
And, yes the Chilli Rasboras will probably be the answer as I know them from the past. I already have CPD's in a single species tank, also with the hard water so I'm going to change over to boiled water for them too. It looks like a larger water boiler might be better than a RO unit.

Oh, and another thing. Boiling the water takes out all the chlorine I believe.

And yet another thing. Bugger me, I'm wide awake now and my head is buzzing with ideas based on the boiled water tests. If these can be verified, and I'm about to do another test after my last kettleful of water has cooled, then even a water boiler may not be needed. I have a couple of 56ltr plastic tubs spare that I could perhaps get a freestanding electric boiling element to use in one of them, if anyone knows of such a creature.

 

[NannaLou]

I’ve had a very quick Google and can’t seem to find anything like a tank heater that will boil water…. But I have found these ‘tea lady urns’ some of which look like they’ll boil over 40 ltrs of water at a time. Once boiled the water could be stored in your tubs…

 

[Lynnzer]

Ah, another early riser. Thanks NannaLou.
Yeah, I saw them already. You know, I probably have 10 coffees each day so if I just fill the kettle each time I'll have at least 15 ltrs a day left over.
I'm running more tests right now. I'm doing a single boil and tested as soon as the water cools, then again with the water left standing overnight, then a double boil. So will put the results up when I'm convinced I'm on the right track.
EDIT
Yup, gone and done it again
So this morning I did another test on a freshly boiled kettle-full; the leftovers from my 2nd coffee.
Differences.
The GH was showing at 15 but the pH and KH were the same.
Then I boiled the same kettleful again, waited for it to cool and tested again.
The GH had gone down to 11. Quite a difference.
I'm putting a once boiled sample aside with a twice boiled sample and left to stand for a day then I'll do another test tomorrow.
Things are looking good though.
The pH isn't showing much difference and is still a pale blue colour which is acidic but I guess I can cure that with the right additive, or sphagnum moss.

 

[Naughts]

Out of interest. Why is it recommended to go online and take the water company's figures? Surely it would make more sense just to test the water coming out of your tap.
The water companies could easily be lying to make their water look better than it is.

Not a recommendation, just a cross reference.
Particularly in this case because
A) Lynzzer was struggling to colour match one of the test results and
B) I'm aware that others from his neck of the woods have softer water so wanted to confirm the test kit results.

When quality home test kits are used correctly, those results will be more accurate. Water companies often record a range which is less specific.

Knowing one's water is absolutely crucial in fish keeping so getting the most and best information at the beginning is always a good thing.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Isn't it a bugger when you get something on your mind that keeps you awake at night. However that's sometimes just what I need. I have given much thought to the problem in my sleep and I think I have something of an answer to it.

I know that a cup of coffee leaves calcium residue in my cup, the rim of the fishtanks has a line of calcium from the evaporation, and the kettle has loads on the heater elements.

Given that, I wondered if boiling the water would reduce the readings for hardness etc.
I have now got out of bed and used the water still in the kettle from last night and tested it. WOW.......
What a difference. The pH is much the same but KH has dropped from 19 to 8 and the GH has gone from 20 to 10.
Can someone else carry out the same tests to see if they get similar results please.

Next thing I'm doing is buying bottled water and testing that to compare.

RO would be ideal however I don't want any unit plumbed in so that all the household water is filtered. So much waste with that. I have an external tap on the kitchen wall that I would be able to adapt for a unit if needed but I'll see what the boiled water solution is like first.
And, yes the Chilli Rasboras will probably be the answer as I know them from the past. I already have CPD's in a single species tank, also with the hard water so I'm going to change over to boiled water for them too. It looks like a larger water boiler might be better than a RO unit.

Oh, and another thing. Boiling the water takes out all the chlorine I believe.

And yet another thing. Bugger me, I'm wide awake now and my head is buzzing with ideas based on the boiled water tests. If these can be verified, and I'm about to do another test after my last kettleful of water has cooled, then even a water boiler may not be needed. I have a couple of 56ltr plastic tubs spare that I could perhaps get a freestanding electric boiling element to use in one of them, if anyone knows of such a creature.

GH tests measure the amount of Calcium and Magnesium ions in the water.

The Fish Keeper’s Guide to pH, GH, and KH | Water Chemistry 101

This practical guide for beginners explains what these water chemistry terms mean, when you should test for them, and how to raise or lower them if needed.

www.aquariumcoop.com

This seems interesting or we can wait for Essjay who is our Chemistry expert:

temporary-water-hardness

temporary water hardness due to calcium hydrogencarbonate and magnesium hydrogencarbonate.

www.lenntech.com

water-hardness

This calculator helps you determine the total water hardness by using calcium and magnesium concentrations

www.lenntech.com

 

[Essjay]

Temporary hardness is part of KH - bicarbonates (aka hydrogen carbonates). It's called temporary as it can be removed by boiling water. They decompose to carbonate which is insoluble and form the limescale found inside kettles etc.

What we call hardness is the amount of divalent metal ions in the water. In practical terms these are mainly calcium with some magnesium and trace amounts of other metals. It would be impossible to give a hardness as "x mg/l calcium + y mg/l magnesium + z mg/l metal A......" so hardness is expressed as though it was all calcium carbonate or all calcium or even all calcium oxide.



In this instance, the test kit gives GH 20 dH while the water company gives 25. The actual number is not very important - both are very high and unsuitable for soft water fish.

 

[Lynnzer]

And it doesn't matter that the hardness reduces by 50% when boiled? The test kit is showing OK on the boiled water for both the KH & GH.
I have also been to Tesco this morning and bought a couple of 5ltr bottles of Ashbeck English mineral water.
These have been tested on both my ATC PH meter and the TDS meter which I just found a couple of hours ago.
The GH hardness is shown as 81ppm and the PH is showing at 7.1 so it seems this water is just fine.

 

[Essjay]

If boiling produces repeatable results, yes it will keep GH down. It's more the practicality of doing it. For tanks larger than say, 40 litres/10 gallons it would be impractical but for nano tanks it might be doable.

I think most fishkeepers would find using bottled water or RO just easier.

 

[Lynnzer]

I've just done a 50/50 mix with the Tesco water and my normal tapwater. It's bang on for me at 195ppm and at 7.3 ph is also satisfactory. No RO needed and much less expensive. Saying that, all my excess kettle water is being kept.

 

[Essjay]

195 ppm is still a bit on the high side for Microdevario kubotai though. 180 ppm is the top of their range and it is better to keep fish near the middle of their hardness range.

If 50/50 drops it from 20 to 11 (rounding your numbers to whole dH), then a 2:1 bottled:tap would give a lower GH.

 

[Lynnzer]

Ah, I didn't go for the Microdevario kubotai due to them really being better in moving water as in their home streams. My tank is a corner bubble filter with virtually no flow.
The LFS (Horizon Aquatics) did have the Kubotai in and they did look very nice though. In fact I see so many fish in here that I haven't seen in most of the other LFS's I have visited.
I opted for the Boraras maculatus. I am using only the bottled water for this tank at 81PPM and I have dropped some Catappa leaves, shredded into smaller pieces, as well as some alder cones.
I will be checking water parameters daily and adjusting the ph as necessary by taking out leaves/cones or even adding some if needed.
I also have sphagnum moss so I may put a small pouch of that in.

 

[Essjay]

I've had B maculatus in the past. A bit bigger than chili rasboras but not by much, they're still tiny fish. I didn't see those last time I was in Horizon Aq, but I only had a quick look round the nano room as I wanted plants. I did spot a snail I wanted, then forgot to go back and get it after the plant room

 

[Lynnzer]

I've had B maculatus in the past. A bit bigger than chili rasboras but not by much, they're still tiny fish. I didn't see those last time I was in Horizon Aq, but I only had a quick look round the nano room as I wanted plants. I did spot a snail I wanted, then forgot to go back and get it after the plant room

I just love that place. So welcoming and with so many absolutely gorgeous tanks all aquascaped. Just wish I could actually buy a fully planted one.
They had some chili's in one of their show tanks, but none in a sale tank. They had the maculatus in the shrimp room. Two tanks with them in. The first tank Dave was going to take them from, he noticed they had white spot. How in hell he could see white spot on such a small critter is beyong me. Anyway, he di, and I believe had it been any other LFS he'd have sold them.
The 2nd tank was free though but I'll keep watch and see they go.
I also bought some black carbon rili shrimp to go in the same tank to clean the leftovers on the pebbled tank bottom.