PH help

[Maff]

Hi all, new to the forum but not to fish keeping all be it 25 years ago. Things have changed since I last kept tropical and marine tanks such as the cannister filters and available products.
I've just invested in a Aqua one 145 liter tank which is up and running but not started a cycle because I'm having an issue with the local water.
When I kept fish here before 25 years ago the GH, KH and PH buffered around 7.3 in the tank after 2 to 3 days settling down with air stones running, heat on, filter running and dechlorinated.
I set my tank up 4 days ago and the initial PH was 7.4 out of the tap. Air stones running, heater on, Aqua one 850 running, used Prime dechlorinator and after 24 hours the PH settled at 8.0 and stayed there stable for 3 days. I test with a test tube kit and a ATC pen which both give the same reading.
Out of interest I then tested all my silicate substrates to make sure they were inert over a 24 hour period without air and they did not effect the water like the tank does but went to 7.8, I then tested the tap water on its own without air over a 24 hour period and again 7.8 so we're getting high buffering. Today I removed 3/4's of the tank water and replaced it, added Prime. heated it and filter running but no air. After 6 hours PH was at 7.8 like the water I tested. Turn the air on, CO2 and Oxygen exchange quite rapidly and here we are at PH 8 buffered up to the eyeballs lol.
If I get stability on this second run I'm thinking of keeping the 8 PH because I'm not in the habit of using peat or driftwood or artificial buffers, I tend to stick with what ever I have at the tap because it simplifies my PWC's.
My question to you guys is this If I stick with a stabilized 8 (which might drop a tad after the stock replaces some CO2) is most of the stock in the UK tolerant of moderate hardness and a PH of 8? Are they supplying fish bred over here in the UK that will adapt to PH8?
Or are they still importing fish from abroad less tolerant.
The fish I'm planning are thus after completed no fish cycle
No more than 20 small to moderate community fish working at the figure 1cm per litre (I have 125 litres after substrate and ornaments)
Guppies
Danios
Neon Tetra
Cherry barbs
Corydoras (dwarf type)
and maybe a solitary show fish in the middle such as 1 angle.
If UK stocks won't take 8PH for these species I'm open to ideas of a better plan with community fish that will take the higher PH levels.
BTW I did a ammonia test this morning (test tube) and was expecting some released ammonia after the Prime had suspended the ammonia from the chloramine then released it after 48 hrs. Wasn't too bad at 0.2ppm and I'm happy to start a cycle at those levels.
Thanks in advance.
Maff

 

[Sgooosh]

Hi all, new to the forum but not to fish keeping all be it 25 years ago. Things have changed since I last kept tropical and marine tanks such as the cannister filters and available products.
I've just invested in a Aqua one 145 liter tank which is up and running but not started a cycle because I'm having an issue with the local water.
When I kept fish here before 25 years ago the GH, KH and PH buffered around 7.3 in the tank after 2 to 3 days settling down with air stones running, heat on, filter running and dechlorinated.
I set my tank up 4 days ago and the initial PH was 7.4 out of the tap. Air stones running, heater on, Aqua one 850 running, used Prime dechlorinator and after 24 hours the PH settled at 8.0 and stayed there stable for 3 days. I test with a test tube kit and a ATC pen which both give the same reading.
Out of interest I then tested all my silicate substrates to make sure they were inert over a 24 hour period without air and they did not effect the water like the tank does but went to 7.8, I then tested the tap water on its own without air over a 24 hour period and again 7.8 so we're getting high buffering. Today I removed 3/4's of the tank water and replaced it, added Prime. heated it and filter running but no air. After 6 hours PH was at 7.8 like the water I tested. Turn the air on, CO2 and Oxygen exchange quite rapidly and here we are at PH 8 buffered up to the eyeballs lol.
If I get stability on this second run I'm thinking of keeping the 8 PH because I'm not in the habit of using peat or driftwood or artificial buffers, I tend to stick with what ever I have at the tap because it simplifies my PWC's.
My question to you guys is this If I stick with a stabilized 8 (which might drop a tad after the stock replaces some CO2) is most of the stock in the UK tolerant of moderate hardness and a PH of 8? Are they supplying fish bred over here in the UK that will adapt to PH8?
Or are they still importing fish from abroad less tolerant.
The fish I'm planning are thus after completed no fish cycle
No more than 20 small to moderate community fish working at the figure 1cm per litre (I have 125 litres after substrate and ornaments)
Guppies
Danios
Neon Tetra
Cherry barbs
Corydoras (dwarf type)
and maybe a solitary show fish in the middle such as 1 angle.
If UK stocks won't take 8PH for these species I'm open to ideas of a better plan with community fish that will take the higher PH levels.
BTW I did a ammonia test this morning (test tube) and was expecting some released ammonia after the Prime had suspended the ammonia from the chloramine then released it after 48 hrs. Wasn't too bad at 0.2ppm and I'm happy to start a cycle at those levels.
Thanks in advance.
Maff

no, guppies and tetras cannot live together!!!!!!! also barbs cant either. guppies and cories are fine. only buy them if they are raised in your ph

 

[mbsqw1d]

What is your GH and KH? PH doesnt always tell us what it is. Sgooosh is right that there are fish on either ends of the spectrum where GH is concerned. So generally livebearers are hard water fish, and corydoras and tetra for example are generally soft water fish so wouldn't be kept together. But if you have a mid range hardness you might get away with keeping fish of either range within their high end for soft and low end for hard.

 

[Sgooosh]

What is your GH and KH? PH doesnt always tell us what it is. Sgooosh is right that there are fish on either ends of the spectrum where GH is concerned. So generally livebearers are hard water fish, and corydoras and tetra for example are generally soft water fish so wouldn't be kept together. But if you have a mid range hardness you might get away with keeping fish of either range within their high end for soft and low end for hard.

i mean it says 7-8 for a corydora so it MIGHT be fine. the only chance of them being together is if you make your ph on the high 7s

 

[itiwhetu]

pH 8 is to high for virtually all fresh water fish.

 

[Sgooosh]

pH 8 is to high for virtually all fresh water fish.

yes but livebearers like high ph

 

[itiwhetu]

yes but livebearers like high ph

pH 7-7.5. pH8 is starting to get into marine conditions. I have an issue with the philosophy of keeping your water close to source. You should keep fish in conditions that replicate their natural environment, that is what will make your fish happy. So use natural buffers if you need to to achieve this

 

[Maff]

What is your GH and KH? PH doesnt always tell us what it is. Sgooosh is right that there are fish on either ends of the spectrum where GH is concerned. So generally livebearers are hard water fish, and corydoras and tetra for example are generally soft water fish so wouldn't be kept together. But if you have a mid range hardness you might get away with keeping fish of either range within their high end for soft and low end for hard.

Hardness is (KH) 7.48 and GH is 160ppm

 

[mbsqw1d]

Hardness is (KH) 7.48 and GH is 160ppm

Right ok, 9.6GH, 7.45KH and 7.8PH

Ideal conditions for guppies but still a bit low for some other livebearers. Depending on what fish you want to keep I think you'd need to play around with your water chemistry a little. Thats high KH though so to soften it you'd be looking at mixing with RO to do it effectively, using peat etc would be tricky

 

[Maff]

Right ok, 9.6GH, 7.45KH and 7.8PH

Ideal conditions for guppies but still a bit low for some other livebearers. Depending on what fish you want to keep I think you'd need to play around with your water chemistry a little. Thats high KH though so to soften it you'd be looking at mixing with RO to do it effectively, using peat etc would be tricky

Checked PH this morning and its 8 on the dot like my first trial. It's definitely buffering it at that level after co2 has been exchanged (24hrs).
My local aquarium supplier has a similar problem and his tanks are at 7.8. He has advised me to stick at 8PH and start the cycle because he says after my cycle it will drop 0.2 and lower it to 7.8 the same as his.
What do you think?

 

[mbsqw1d]

Checked PH this morning and its 8 on the dot like my first trial. It's definitely buffering it at that level after co2 has been exchanged (24hrs).
My local aquarium supplier has a similar problem and his tanks are at 7.8. He has advised me to stick at 8PH and start the cycle because he says after my cycle it will drop 0.2 and lower it to 7.8 the same as his.
What do you think?

My understanding is that cycles are quicker at a higher PH. Thats why some people often add bicarb soda to a fish-less cycle to raise the PH a bit and give it a boost. I'm just not sure how BB reacts to a change in PH thereafter...
Yeh.. the nitrification process uses up KH and you'll also be having increased levels of nitric acid and carbonic acid, maybe tannins depending on your hardscape choices, so will all work towards lowing the PH slightly. But still, that's a considerable KH level you have and it will take some acid to deplete that buffer and drop the PH much. My opinion anyway. @Essjay is awesome with this water chemistry stuff!

 

[Sgooosh]

Right ok, 9.6GH, 7.45KH and 7.8PH

Ideal conditions for guppies but still a bit low for some other livebearers. Depending on what fish you want to keep I think you'd need to play around with your water chemistry a little. Thats high KH though so to soften it you'd be looking at mixing with RO to do it effectively, using peat etc would be tricky

wait how do you raise kh im having trouble doing that. tank
75gal, bdbs, black lava, yes cuttlebone, yes live plants

 

[Essjay]

It's not only pH that is boosted by adding bicarbonate of soda during fishless cycling - it increases KH as well. Not only does this stop the pH crashing, it provides the inorganic carbon that the bacteria need to multiply. Once a tank is cycled, the bacteria only need to maintain their numbers rather than increase them, so a lower pH and KH is not a problem.

@Sgooosh What is the KH -and GH and pH - of the tank? And what are the tank occupants?

 

[Sgooosh]

It's not only pH that is boosted by adding bicarbonate of soda during fishless cycling - it increases KH as well. Not only does this stop the pH crashing, it provides the inorganic carbon that the bacteria need to multiply. Once a tank is cycled, the bacteria only need to maintain their numbers rather than increase them, so a lower pH and KH is not a problem.

@Sgooosh What is the KH -and GH and pH - of the tank? And what are the tank occupants?

kh is 40 which is TOO LOW and gh is on the low end, got dragged down by the kh, ph is 7-8, i have some bladder snails, 2 horned nerites, 1 mystery snail, lots of baby guppies and adults(around 10-20) and 1 swordtail

 

[Essjay]

A KH is 40 is not too low provided water changes are done regularly to replenish it. KH is only indirectly important to fish for its ability to stabilise pH.
GH is the one to think about. If it is below 200 ppm, the guppies and swordtails will not be happy. With a pH above 7.0, your cuttlebone will only dissolve very slightly so it won't have much effect, though the snails could graze on it to get calcium for their shells.
The usual way to increase GH is to add something like the remineralisation salts used to add to RO water, or Rift Lake cichlid salts. These will both raise KH as well.