Paranoid About Bloat!

[HairyTornado™]

I've mostly only kept SA cichlids, which don't really have any problems when it comes to bloat. Since I've decided to take the plunge into Africans though, I am very much so aware of the problems that might arise. I'm focusing on Lake Malawi, mainly on Aulonocara. I'm really confused about the bloat thing though.

What causes it? What can I do to avoid it? How can I tell if its about to happen? Which foods are best for avoiding it? Which foods should I stay away from?

I got two different types of food from Eddie at BlueGrassCichlids that he says he feeds to his fish regularly. I got one that is mostly based on protein and those type of foods. The other one is mostly based on veggies. I've been feeding them some Hikari Marine -A- pellets as well as some occasional Mysis shrimp. Any tips? Thanks!!

 

[dthoffsett]

While any African Cichlid can contract the dreaded Malawi Bloat, I've honestly never heard of a hap having it. It generally happens to herbivores (ex. mbuna of Lake Malawi). Herbivores have a long intestinal tract where their food digests slowly so they get the maximum amount of nutrition from the plant matter they eat. Because of that, meaty foods stay in their intestines too long and can start to "ferment". I don't explain it very well, but this article does.
[URL="http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php"]http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php[/URL]

Honestly though, I don't think you have anything to worry about, sounds like your fish are getting an excellent diet.

 

[Colin_T]

Bloat is identified by the fish suddenly expanding (blowing up like a balloon) around the belly region. The fish will stop eating. Quite often they produce a long white stringy faeces and die within a few days of developing the symptoms.
It is generally caused by internal bacterial infections that occur when vegetarian fish with long intestinal tracts (as mentioned above) get fed meat foods that take forever to break down and be expelled. The meat rots and bacteria flourish and the fish gets sick and bloats up.
It can also be caused by fish TB and organ failure but in cichlids it is most often vegetarian fishes eating meat foods.
Aulonocaras don't normally have a problem with it, whereas Tropheus are the most commonly affected.

Avoid frozen bloodworms, live tubifex worms and beef heart (red meat) as these are the biggest cause.
Frozen brineshrimp, daphnia, mysis shrimp and marine mix (prawn, fish & squid) are generally fine foods for most fish. Don't feed the marine mix to Tropheus. A good vegetable flake or pellet will help.

Good water quality with regular water changes, gravel cleaning and a clean filter will all help minimise bacterial infections in the fish.

 

[HairyTornado™]

Well something happened. I came home from work yesterday and 14 of my 15 Africans were dead. I really don't know what happened. Some of them had rounded bellies, but most of them were just normal. Perhaps some of them got bloat, then died, raised the ammonia and all and killed the others? Only think I can think of is I did a waterchange the night before and put in more water than normal. So the outtake of my filters was under the water, so there was less surface agitation. I added an airstone, another powerhead, and repositioned the outtake of the filters.

I tested the parameters right after I removed all the fish. I knew I couldn't go by the nitrate and nitrite readings since there had been fourteen dead fish in there for at least half a day. They were alive when I left for work that morning, so I have no idea when they died that day.Anyway, the parameters were:

pH: 8.0
Alkalinity: 250
Hardness: Very soft - soft


I added some crushed coral about a week ago to try and raise the hardness, but obviously it didn't work. Going to add a WHOLE LOT more and raise it up the rest of the way till its hard. The remaining African looks good though.


All I had in there were Aulonocara and Otopharynx Lithobates. I was feeding them foods suggested by the breeder.

Here were the two main foods I was feeding them: Red Zebra Stampede is an all purpose food made up of 6 selected ingredients. The first is a basic formula combining fish meal, krill and spirulina for a concentrated growth and performance food. Then the bend is supplemented with spirulina and vegetable crumble to enhance the diet for omnivores such as Malawi mbuna. Color crumble and shrimp sticks are added for coloring. Finally some earthworm pellets made from live earthworms and egg yolk crumble is added for that extra digestible protein. This a product that can be used everyday as a stand alone food or used as a basic food and supplemented with other products for a customized ration.

Red Zebra "Hippocampus Green" is a combination of spirulina and a quality vegetable product. This product includes zucchini squash broccoli and carrots in addition to the spirulina and an herbivore stick which includes alfalfa. This is an ideal food to supplement all African cichlids, particularly the herbivores and omnivores such as mbuna. It is also a great stand alone diet for tropheus and marine fish.


I really just don't know what happened. Any thoughts?

 

[Colin_T]

I would say you chlorinated them. Did you dechlorinate the new tap water before you put it in the tank?
Having the outlet of the filter under the surface would have reduced the surface movement and potentially lowered the oxygen levels. This combined with the new tap water may have caused the problem. And any ammonia produced by a dead fish is going to be lethal in a tank with a PH of 8.

The crushed coral, limestone, shell, etc is more to buffer the PH and keep it high. It will increase the hardness a little bit but only a bit and only slowly. If you want to raise the hardness of the water you need to add mineral salts to the tank.
Epsom salts have magnesium and calcium.
Aquasonic does a Rift Lake Conditioner that is a mixture of mineral salts found in Lake Tanganyika and Malawi. It will increase the hardness and PH.
It is prefered to make the water up the day before you use it. This allows the mineral salts a chance to fully dissolve before the water is put in the tank.

Check the heater as Africans don't tolerate really high temperatures, especially sudden rises in temp.

 

[HairyTornado™]

Always. I normally add part of the Dechlorinator before, some during, and then some after, just to make sure I completely got all the chlorine out. That really wouldn't make sense. I did the water change the night before. Why would it take them all day to die from the chlorine?

So adding salts is whats going to raise the hardness? Not the crushed coral? Hmmm.

I don't know if the heater had anything to do with it. I keep the tank at around 80 degrees. That too hot? I'll drop the temp down some. They had been fine for over a week, not sure what happened.

Was thinking of using SeaChem or something like that for the Rift Salts. I've got to get something that is already available for me here.

 

[Colin_T]

It's risky adding dechlorinator while the tank is filling. There is no guarantee you are getting rid of all the chlorine before it gets to the fish. It usually does the job but sometimes it doesn't do it quickly enough.

Maybe one fish died shortly after the water change and got stuck under a rock. Then the ammonia levels went up and the fish started to drop while you were at work.

Crushed coral will help raise the hardness a bit but it is slow. If you want to take the hardness up reasonably quickly you need to add the mineral salts. Once dissolved in the water the hardness will have gone up, (usually < 24 hours).

80F should be fine for the temp. The reason I mention temp is because there have been a few reports lately about fish dieing for no apparent reason. Many of them were heater or thermometer related. Faulty thermometers reading too low and heaters staying on for too long and not turning off.

Use whatever rift lake salts are available near you. I use Aquasonic because they are available near me.

 

[HairyTornado™]

It's risky adding dechlorinator while the tank is filling. There is no guarantee you are getting rid of all the chlorine before it gets to the fish. It usually does the job but sometimes it doesn't do it quickly enough.

So when then do I add it if I want to dechlorinate the water? Do I add it to the buckets? I use a python most of the time, so the water goes straight into the tank, how are you supposed to deal with that? Lately though I've been using 5 gal buckets.

Maybe one fish died shortly after the water change and got stuck under a rock. Then the ammonia levels went up and the fish started to drop while you were at work.

That would definately make sense. The higher pH levels make ammonia and stuff more potent? I upped the aeriation though, so hopefully there will be enough agitation/diffusion from now on.

Crushed coral will help raise the hardness a bit but it is slow. If you want to take the hardness up reasonably quickly you need to add the mineral salts. Once dissolved in the water the hardness will have gone up, (usually < 24 hours).

Which is more stable though? Will there be hardness crashes like there are pH crashes? I want the one that is most stable, and requires the least amount of adjustment. I am adding salts and minerals, as long as I don't have to be CONSTANTLY checking them to make sure they are in the right areas and adding them to do so. Will the hardness going up so fast hurt the fish? I have one African left...haha.

80F should be fine for the temp. The reason I mention temp is because there have been a few reports lately about fish dieing for no apparent reason. Many of them were heater or thermometer related. Faulty thermometers reading too low and heaters staying on for too long and not turning off.

I am still going to drop down the temp some, just in case. I would really hate to find out that its a heater problem. It is an old heater(5 yrs), so its very possible thats what the problem is.

Use whatever rift lake salts are available near you. I use Aquasonic because they are available near me.

I am just wondering what brands work best? I mean, if I have options between different products, which are best?

Thanks for all your time and help. Its been most enlightening.

 

[Colin_T]

The best way to dechlorinate the water is to get a bucket, put the tap water in it and add the dechlorinator. Then stir it up and leave for a couple of minutes, (or longer if possible). For a big tank you should get a couple of big plastic rubbish bins and fill them with tap water. Add the dechlorinator and rift lake conditioners and put an airstone in the buckets to mix the water up. Leave for 24 hours and you will have hard alkaline water that is free of chlorine. You can also put a spare heater in the buckets to get the temperature the same as the tank.

To clean the tank just use a normal gravel cleaner and siphon the gunk out into buckets . Then tip the dirty water onto the garden. For a big tank get a long piece of hose and attach that to the gravel cleaner. Then run the hose out the door onto the garden. Just gravel clean the tank and allow the water to drain straight out the door.
You can make a gravel cleaner from a 2litre plastic Coca Cola bottle. Cut the bottom off the bottle and attach the hose to the top (where the cap normally goes). Start the siphon and push the bottle into the gravel and lift it up.

By draining the water out with a normal gravel cleaner you can remove 1/3 and that is all that gets replaced. Then you know exactly how much new water is going into the tank.

The general hardness is pretty stable. Once the water is hard it stays that way until it is mixed with soft water. If there is lots of rubbish breaking down in the tank the carbonates and bicarbonates (KH) will be used up. Most rift lake conditioners have huge amounts of carbonates to keep the PH high and prevent it from crashing.

If there are fish in the tank then increase the hardness over the course of a couple of weeks. The easiest way is to simply do 25-30% water changes with hard water twice a week. The hardness will increase a bit with each water change.
The other way to increase the hardness when there are fish in the tank is to add a tablespoon of rift lake salts each day. They will dissolve during the course of a day and increase the hardness over time.

Try to get a brand name conditioner. Tetra, Sera & SeaChem do pretty good stuff.

 

[HairyTornado™]

If I just get a 10/20lb bag of Crushed Coral, and add that to the tank, will that also raise the Hardness? I really don't want to mess with Chemicals or Conditioners for the tank if I don't have to. It just makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to have to be constantly checking it to make sure that its alright, or always buying more cuz I run out. Plus I don't want to raise my pH much more. Its already at least at 8.0, possibly higher. The test kit I have stops there. I've heard that the conditioners also raise the pH as well. Pretty sure the crushed coral will as well, but perhaps less than the conditioners?

The alkalinity of my already pretty high. Its at 250 - 300, which according to the test strip is higher than normal. So not really worried about my carbonates getting used up quickly. The tap water is annoyingly soft though, which doesn't make much sense to me since its well water, has HIGH pH and HIGH Alkalinity.

If I do do the Rift Lake Salts, is it ABSOLUTELY neccessary to let it sit in the bucket for 24 hrs? Because the buckets I would be using to mix the salt and dechlorinator are also the ones I use to change the water with.

Could I just get a powerhead and sit it in there for about half an hour or so and then add it to the tanks? Really limited on space to have 5 gal buckets sitting around.

 

[Colin_T]

a big bag of crushed coral will raise the hardness a bit but it will do it slowly. Each time you do a water change it will have to start again. Chances are it won't raise the hardness much more than 50ppm in a couple of weeks. It will definitely hold the pH up tho. Coral rubble should keep the PH about 8.5.

water can have completely weird readings. You can get soft & acid, hard & alkaline, soft & alkaline, hard & acid. The first two are the norm but when hard water runs out of carbonates the PH can drop. And soft water can have its PH fluctuate rapidly with a small amount of carbonate or bicarbonate dissolved in it.

You don't have to mix the salts and water up for 24 hours but it is preferred to do that. It allows all the salts to dissolve properly. If you are short on space then yes you can mix the water up and have it heavily aerated or use a powerhead to mix it for 10-20 minutes. You might get a fine layer of undissolved salts on the bottom of the buckets. You can pour that into the tank and it will mix in over the next day or so.
Most hardwares sell 70litre plastic rubbish bins and they work well for water holding. Perhaps look around for a couple to use for water changes. When not in use they can be rinsed, dried and stacked away with the other fish gear. They also come in handy if you have to move house.

 

[HairyTornado™]

So the Chemicals are the only sure fire way I have of reliably raising my hardness. Bugger. Alright, if thats the way I have to go, then so be it. How much will it raise my pH though?

Is it really neccessary for me to raise my hardness? I want the conditions to be just right for my fish, but I am wondering how much it will affect them if its not hard?

Can you give me a few suggestions as to where I can get some Rift Salts online? No idea where to start looking. Thanks again!

 

[kj23502]

So the Chemicals are the only sure fire way I have of reliably raising my hardness. Bugger. Alright, if thats the way I have to go, then so be it. How much will it raise my pH though?

Is it really neccessary for me to raise my hardness? I want the conditions to be just right for my fish, but I am wondering how much it will affect them if its not hard?

Can you give me a few suggestions as to where I can get some Rift Salts online? No idea where to start looking. Thanks again!

hi i just pm'd u some info. the dr foster smith link i gave to you has the buffering stuff online for the SeaChem Malawi Victoria Cichlid buffer.

here's whatt they say about it:
* pH conditioner/buffer for freshwater aquariums housing Malawi and Victoria cichlids
* Recreate water conditions found in Africa’s Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria

*Increases aquarium alkalinity and maintains a pH between 7.8 - 8.4

Seachem’s Malawi/Victoria Buffer is a specifically designed formula that enhances the natural environment of freshwater aquariums housing African Rift Lake cichlids. Water conditioner/buffer helps promote proper health by providing appropriate levels of carbonate salt for African cichlids. Freshwater aquarium additive increases water hardness (alkalinity), buffering capacity, and pH to replicate the natural Rift Lake Malawi/Victoria environment. Formulated to raise and maintain pH between 7.8 - 8.4 depending on usage – an essential product for owners of Malawi and Victoria cichlids. Recommended for use when making water changes or when setting up a new freshwater African cichlid tank. Available in two economical sizes; 300 grams treats approximately 800 to 1,600 gallons.

 

[Colin_T]

generally mineral salts are the most effective way to increase the hardness of the water. Most rift lake conditioners will raise the PH to anywhere between 8.5 & 9.0. This is to match the water conditions in the rift lakes of Africa that have a high PH. They won't make your water go much (if any) higher than it already is.

If the fish you are keeping (or want to keep) come from Lake Malawi , Lake Victoria & Lake Tanganyika then they should have hard alkaline water. However, if you are getting locally bred fish that have been kept in soft water then they will be fine in softer water.

Most captive bred rift lake cichlids are pretty tough and as long as the PH doesn't drop below 7 they are normally fine. Many will also tolerate quite soft water.
Wild caught fish will need hard alkaline water.

Buying rift lake conditioner over the internet can get expensive because the stuff is sold by weight. 1kg, 2kg, 5kg, 10kg & 20kg. Freight for the large containers can cost more than the product.
If you live in Australia you can try
[URL="http/www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/"]http/www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/[/URL]

not sure about other parts of the world. You could ring your LFS and ask if they have any and if so see if they send things out by courier. Again tho it could get costly having it shipped to your house.

 

[HairyTornado™]

Geez, they can handle a pH that high? Wow. Well, I guess I'll give the salts a chance then. See how it works out. Not sure what the breeder has his in, he lives a couple states over from me, but I'm assuming he keeps them in hard, alkaline water.

I'm planning on keeping Lake Malawi cichlids mostly, mainly Aulonocara and Haps.