Pantodon Butterflies

[LauraFrog]

My parents, being parents, have us living in a tiny ramshackle dump (being parents). There are plans to move though, fairly soon construction should start on the new house. They promised me that I could have any fish tank I wanted provided I could get it into my bedroom. You can bet your butt I took them up on this. See, at the moment I'm restricted to 22 gals (this being the largest tank I have ever owned) so if I didn't have something big to plan, I'd go mad.

Anyway, the tank I'm planning is a paludarium (half full with terrestrial plants and frogs in the top section). I really, REALLY want to keep butterfly fish, so I'm planning it around their requirements. I'm thinking soft, acid water, low flow, well planted. MAYBE C02, but not sure if it's a good idea given my tendency to overfilter and then overstock. It works, and I easily keep on top of all my 'overstocked' tanks - but I don't know that it wouldn't come crashing down if I then started diffusing toxic gases into the water.

I've been reading as much info on Pantodon as I can find, but a lot of it's vague, conflicting or blatantly false. So if anything I've got planned is totally not going to work, I want to know now before I've got the tank... lol

Not sure how big this will be. If I get my way, 80-100 gals half full, so 40-50 gals of water. Since I've heard some people saying 15 gals is the minimum and others saying it's 50+ - this would be enough, right?
I know I can't keep other surface dwellers, but I'm not sure on the minimum size of tankmates either. Again, conflicting info... I've heard there was a six inch butterfly that ate everything less than 4 inches but I've also heard max size is 8-10 cm and that anything over 2 inches would be okay. Would I be safe with smallish plecs, cory paleatus, maybe yoyo loaches, platys, congo tetras and larger rainbowfish? Obviously I'm not going to stock with all of that, those are just some of the options I'm thinking about... does anybody think a butterfly would decide they were lunch?

Finally what about frogs? The frogs I'm thinking of are pets of mine, Litoria caerulea known in Australia as the Common Green and overseas as White's treefrog (oddly fitting because generations of captive breeding and poor diet has washed their colour out... mine are wild bred and emerald green.) I raised these frogs from tadpoles. They are the offspring of my old giant Gargantua, who died a few years ago, and Lady Jayne who survived everything you can throw at a frog. MAJOR sentimental value alert. They are not in a tank at the moment, but are hand tame and rely on me to feed them... if I wasn't supplementing their diet there would not be enough food to support so many in their current habitat. Obviously, I gotta take em with me... The particular frogs I want to put in there are already breeding age adults of about 8-10 cm (smallest being 3.5 inches or thereabouts). I'm legally quite within my rights to take two, which means the others would be able to support themselves on the available food. (Boy is that gonna be a hard decision.) But am I okay with native frogs and Pantodon? The frogs would not enter the water very often, because I'm planning a waterfall and that, coupled with the natural humidity in the tank, would be enough to keep them moist. They eat live insects as well, but I have no problem providing enough live insects for the frogs and the butterflies. If they're incompatible I guess that's the end of keeping butterflies for now at least, because those frogs come first. I'm not leaving them. me and my frogs lol

Anyway, sorry about the long post and thanks in advance for any help... all this conflicting information is driving me mad, I can't find two sources that agree on anything except them being surface dwelling predators.

 

[VampirePlec]

I am sorry i am unable to give you any advice with this tank, i have never kept frogs, and only kept a butterfly fish once but unfortunately from moving house he over stressed and passed, amazing fish tho.

Good luck and hope your plans work out cause this does sound like a truly magnificent tank!

 

[LauraFrog]

Thanks, that's what I'm hoping too! It might be a while after I get it before I put fish in it because I want to make sure it's set up right.

How aggressive are the butterflies? The only ones I've actually seen in the flesh were just hanging motionless at the surface and completely ignoring anything moving below them, including fish small enough to be food (neons). But I know not to judge a fish's temperament from what I see in overcrowded dealers' tanks. Made that mistake before. Obviously I won't risk keeping them with something small enough to be comfortably food - but I did think, well surely if they are well fed and happy they won't feel the need to hunt and try to stuff down something 1/2 to 2/3 their own size?

I'm worried about nipping of frog limbs though, one of the frogs that will definitely go with me is visually impaired. He's not blind but he has trouble focusing and is very bad at judging speed or distance - he'll try and leap onto something, miss by half a metre and fall flat on the ground, or close his mouth an inch in front of an insect he's trying to eat. So he would do things like fall in the water. A lot. That's the frog I'm mainly worried about because he does depend on us, more so when he was little but still now to a point, he would have died if I hadn't hand raised him.

 

[Ace Of Spades]

Thanks, that's what I'm hoping too! It might be a while after I get it before I put fish in it because I want to make sure it's set up right.

How aggressive are the butterflies? The only ones I've actually seen in the flesh were just hanging motionless at the surface and completely ignoring anything moving below them, including fish small enough to be food (neons). But I know not to judge a fish's temperament from what I see in overcrowded dealers' tanks. Made that mistake before. Obviously I won't risk keeping them with something small enough to be comfortably food - but I did think, well surely if they are well fed and happy they won't feel the need to hunt and try to stuff down something 1/2 to 2/3 their own size?

I'm worried about nipping of frog limbs though, one of the frogs that will definitely go with me is visually impaired. He's not blind but he has trouble focusing and is very bad at judging speed or distance - he'll try and leap onto something, miss by half a metre and fall flat on the ground, or close his mouth an inch in front of an insect he's trying to eat. So he would do things like fall in the water. A lot. That's the frog I'm mainly worried about because he does depend on us, more so when he was little but still now to a point, he would have died if I hadn't hand raised him.

I have no experience with them as of yet, but I dont think they will go hunting for food. But if that curious little neon decideds to check out the top of the tank for a second then he is dead meat .

 

[LauraFrog]

(Lesson #1: Do Not Put Neons With African Butterflies.) Ya, okay. lol
Would I be safe with corydoras that come to the top once in a while for a bubble of air? I was thinking I might have a mixed species school of corys, you know, two of this, three of that. I can get some rarer corys and I would LOVE some, but they are too expensive to buy five or six of them. Could i keep the smaller ones like C. panda?

How big have people seen these suckers? Like I said I've had websites saying anything from 3 to 6 inches max size. The ones I saw were about 3 inches and they were for sale for $25 each. Cheaper than I can get them on the net AND I trust the guy selling them.

I'm just trying to work out my tank configurations now. The water I have available when we move is rainwater (soft and slightly acid) townwater (soft and neutral but needs dechlor) and bore water (the bore isn't down so I haven't tested it but the chances seem good that it's medium to hard and neutral to alkaline.) I have a 22 gallon long which is cycled, and hopefully a 30-40 gallon which is not even mine as yet. (plus a 6 gal brackish, 6 gal divided betta, 6 gal ember tetra and shrimp, too many darn betta tanks to count.)

At the moment I have eight platies, a BN, three paleatus corys, a longfin rosy barb (getting 2 more) and I'm getting a pair of kribs. A bit overstocked but extremely overfiltered and over-WCd. So I'll be keeping those, plus I also want some combination of the following: diamond tetras, congo tetras, mollies (I WISH) boesemani rainbows, local rainbows (Melanotaenia splendida complex, which I cannot split to save my life, there are six subspecies) more corys (rarer corys) and three beacon plec *drool*.

Boesemani is hardwater and also salt tolerant so maybe I could go very slightly brackish on the 22 gal and put the mollies, the boeseman's rainbows and the platies and such in there. I'm pretty intent on having the soft acid water in the paludarium, because I want the butterflies in there (a foot of air space as well as the hood will make it a lot harder to jump) and because it avoids me having to acclimate the frogs to the different water, which is a pain because they're not aquatic frogs, they are terrestrial and they will need enough babying to adjust them to the paludarium anyway.

Legally I can keep up to 4 common species provided I stick to some rules about collecting and keeping them, so I might be able to find some other frogs as well. It's easier all round to look after the hand tame ones though. You gotta move them, you just pick them up. (Or in Gargantua's case, you clicked your fingers and said 'up'. But these are only his sons and daughters, guess I can't expect them to be too perfect. I miss him.)

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it! If I know what I want well I can get down to the serious business of scaping this tank the second I get it.

 

[VampirePlec]

the one i had got to about 4in i guess - as i said after moving he passed. i did have him in with corys before i moved him - but he was only small at the time. they usually just sit round the top, every now and then gets a burst of energy and swims around the top of the tank. i never really saw him venture much lower than the top of the tank. my partners mother had green tree frogs at one stage - but she let them go soon after i met him so i didnt get much of a chance to learn about them. they are very few n far between here even tho they are native we have been in a drout for a few years now and they dont like that too much, plus cane toads find them a tasty snack.

 

[LauraFrog]

Hoo, boy do I hate toads. They're worse up further north (I live around Cairns). They ate the brothers and sisters of the frogs I have now. It was so disgusting, we were killing them and cutting them open and pulling the froglets out but we only saved three or four.

At least the drought didn't really hit up here, we got some substandard monsoons but we never ran out of water, we were only on level one or two as far as I know.

Thanks for the info! I've gotta spend a bit more time watching the real ones, I want to try and get an accurate picture of their behavior so I can work out what I'd keep them with.

 

[VampirePlec]

we are on level 6 water restrictions here (brisbane) - but that hasnt stopped my partner and i with our fish keeping, 2 3fts (another in planing) 3 2fts, a 20l and 2 5l. it sounds like you have done alot of research that is realy good to see i hope everything works out for you and id love to see pics when its set up!

 

[LauraFrog]

Level Six! Eurch - how do you do it?

I think I'll do a tank journal when I get it set up so I can use one thread to bombard everybody with questions... it will be the most challenging aquascape I've attempted because I'm planning terraces up both back walls and a waterfall with spillstone. I'm still looking for the spillstone - largely flat but slightly curved. ATM I'm thinking canister filter with a return outlet positioned somewhere at the top out of sight, the water can fall down from there.

ATM I'm toying with:
3 african butterflies
4 or 5 local rainbows (Melanotaenia splendida ?inornata)
? 4 Boeseman's rainbow (might go in the hard water tank though)
? some congo tetras
About 6 diamond tetras
Three beacon plec if I can get it and L333/L168
School of mixed species Corydoras
Pakistani (yoyo) loach

Not sure whether this will work or not yet... will depend on how large the tank is I guess but I'm intending to put a large canister filter on it.

 

[VampirePlec]

im not sure either, with the split levels etc. i have been waiting for some one else to reply with some answers as i am intrigued to find out myself. that does sound like a very nice selection of fish. it is hard with the water restrictions especially with running a business. wow your able to get a three beacon plec? it is hard to get different types of plecs, only really common, sailfin, common brisltes, starlight and orange spots occasionally (tho i do have one of these and a common), and occasionally clowns and gold spots - the rarer ones occasionally coming available but very expensive.

 

[LauraFrog]

I can get L333 and L168 and some peppermint bristlenose. The peppermints are about $50 each, L333 is $125 and L168 is about $150. So they'll be expensive if I do end up forking out for them. A three beacon is prettier and actually cheaper, there are Aquabid people selling them for about $40 as juvies. It's $25 to import coveringhealth checks, documentation and quarantine as well as some transhipper fees and I wouldn't think the shipping was extreme because you can buy almost anything from the Livefish warehouse (Brisbane, I believe that's where the quarantine facilities are) for $16. L333 is sort of like a zebra only it's butter coloured and black striped, but similar markings. L168 is a lot like L046 but it's mottled and the black is less distinct. It's still NOOOOOT cheap. Pantodon are close to $30 each, but if I get three it won't break the bank. I've been saving for something like this for years now.

I'm still working out the logistics with it, I'm toying with the idea of a sump/refugium but I think on a FW tank it might just end up a melting pot of algae and sludge and every other foul thing... a canister is easier to clean and maintain anyhow. And I'd never be able to stick to a refugium, I'd have it stocked with livebearer fry before the month was out. I'm a hopeless case.

ATM I'm thinking of the background... maybe one of those drywall things they use to stick on the walls of a house. It's like slate or something like that but it's not real, you glue it on the outside. I'm not sure it it's safe for use in aquaria but I woudl think it would be a yes because it doesn't weather, fade or run when it's on the outside of a house.. gotta be watersafe?

 

[VampirePlec]

Yes i know the lived fish, its on they way up to mt Tambourine, tho have never had time to stop in. we are trying hard not to get any more fish or tanks, as with running the motel/bar/restaurant/function center it takes up alot of our time and it is unfair on the fish as we dont have as much time as they deserve. i think the butterflys here are only $15-$20.

 

[piper]

I used to have two ABF in a 70gal (18inch high). I lost a good few cardinal tetras to them. How high will the water level on your tank be ?

 

[kubora666]

ive kept them before, really good fish, as long as they are the only species ocupying the top part of the tank they will be fine, infact im getting some soon, and some rainbows and stuff and i looked up alot of info on them and all i found said it would be fine.
corydoras will especialy be fine as they naturaly dont go to tthe surface.
if you really want to reduce the butterflies from attacking tankmates feed the tankmates sinking pellets =)

 

[LauraFrog]

So no surface breathing anabantids? I was sort of thinking of chucking some paradise fish in there but they dont' need much room, I could put them in a smaller tank I guess. I've got one free.

The water level will be 1/2 to 2/3 the way up the paludarium, definitely at least a foot and a half of air space to give the frogs adequate room. The amount of water will depend on how big the paludarium is, how many fish I really, really want and how much overstocking I think I can get away with.

I have been looking up the plecs and have come to the conclusion that they are totally mis identified. I have no idea what they're worth - ripoff or bargain? I might try and get some photos for a positive ID because they sure as hell aren't what they are labelled as. But yeah, I love bottom dwellers, so I'm going to clog up a lot of the stocking with various creepy crawlies hovering around the bottom and then some of the larger tetra species and rainbows for the middle levels. I'm not sure whether my kribs will go in the paludarium or in the current tank. I'm definitely definitely DEFINITELY putting checkerboard cichlids in the paludarium so it will depend on whether it's large enough to have two pairs of territorial-when-breeding, monogamous dwarf cichlids in the same tank. I'd prefer to put the kribensis in the other tank actually because hard, alkaline water = male fry and there is a bad shortage of male kribs around here. But yeah, about the checkerboards, they are Dicrossus filamentosus, sometimes the females are only 7 or 8cm. Still a safe size?