Newbies Needs Advice - Wcmm Flicking

[doggiebag]

HI

I have a 25 litre tank with 6 wcmm (3 golden, 3 normal)

It has been cycling for 60 days and has just reached the point of 0 ammonia and nitrite, literally 2 days into qualifying week......ammonia never peaked more than 0.50 nor did nitrite. Ph is 8.0, nitrates 20. I did partial water changes daily, amount depended on readings......usually between 15% and 50%.........the fish all seemed fine with no deaths during cycling, thank goodness.

Yesterday I noticed one female flicking, she was darting at the ornament, twisting as she got to it and darting back off....she did this a few times in the course of an hour, so I removed her to a small spare tank for observation. Last night I noticed a male darting and bouncing off the filter, removed him. Today another male flicked off a plastic plant, so I put the other two back in as it now looks like I have to treat the whole tank............

trouble is, Im not too sure what it is, I was thinking gill/body flukes or parasites, so was going to med with Sterazin........though it could also be early signs of ich or velvet from what Ive read........I do have Protozin too, but which to use?

Tank also had 2 nerite snails, I am guessing they need to be removed before meds are added? I decided to hold off until someone can advise me what to do next..... Just checked Protozin says remove snails, Sterazin doesn't, so can I leave them in if I use Sterazin?

Fish all seem okay, no clamped fins or fast breathing, the males tend to hold their fins partially closed unless displaying anyway but females never do, their fins are fully open, even the one that flicks. The males are still displaying and they all play. Haven't noticed any stringy white poo, but then I rarely see them poo anyway as it breaks off quick. They are all eating, nothing to point to ill health apart from the flicking, which has gone from 1 to 3 fish in the past day that I have noticed the first issue, it may be there was mild flicking before but I never noticed it.....come to think of it the second male did bounce off the filter a few days ago, but I didn't really think much of it, it was the female flicking off the ornament that alerted me.

I have shone a torch at them and can't see any white spots or golden dust, trouble is the golden wcmm are white and have a golden shimmer anyway, so pretty hard to say on them.

Gills seem okay, are slightly red but not much more than usual I would say.....no sunken stomachs.........all swim, eat play happily just the odd flicking from 3 of them at the moment........

The snails were only added last night so it can't be them bringing something in as the first female showed signs before then, plus I have read nerites rarely carry flukes due to their tiny size.......I did add a moss ball about a week ago, before I added it I did soak in a solution of Sterazin for a few hours just in case, but maybe it didn't work and something was in there anyway......

I have sterazin, myxazin, protozin, melafix, interpet internal bac med, aquarium salt, epsom salts and stress coat in my fish cupboard, just in case.....so plenty of meds if I should need them.

I think Sterazin might be the way to go but will not add anything until I get more advice.

thanks to anyone who can help.

Updated: just watched the male flicking on ornament. He is not rubbing his body or flicking full lenght of body against things, it is just the face area only that touches the objects they flick against. The female turned so she could get side of face, which made me think of flukes.......this info might help


update 2:
update: started first dose of sterazin today

There is now a pattern to the flashing, watched 2 fish flash against decor and both were making contact with their faces, mostly underside of chin.....there is also erratic swimming, more darting and flicking behaviour. Not sure if this helps diagnosis......



Im posting here, as I originally posted in tropical fish emergencies, then realized it was the wrong area as they are coldwater lol

 

[t1tanrush]

HI

I have a 25 litre tank with 6 wcmm (3 golden, 3 normal)

It has been cycling for 60 days and has just reached the point of 0 ammonia and nitrite, literally 2 days into qualifying week......ammonia never peaked more than 0.50 nor did nitrite. Ph is 8.0, nitrates 20. I did partial water changes daily, amount depended on readings......usually between 15% and 50%.........the fish all seemed fine with no deaths during cycling, thank goodness.

Yesterday I noticed one female flicking, she was darting at the ornament, twisting as she got to it and darting back off....she did this a few times in the course of an hour, so I removed her to a small spare tank for observation. Last night I noticed a male darting and bouncing off the filter, removed him. Today another male flicked off a plastic plant, so I put the other two back in as it now looks like I have to treat the whole tank............

trouble is, Im not too sure what it is, I was thinking gill/body flukes or parasites, so was going to med with Sterazin........though it could also be early signs of ich or velvet from what Ive read........I do have Protozin too, but which to use?

Tank also had 2 nerite snails, I am guessing they need to be removed before meds are added? I decided to hold off until someone can advise me what to do next..... Just checked Protozin says remove snails, Sterazin doesn't, so can I leave them in if I use Sterazin?

Fish all seem okay, no clamped fins or fast breathing, the males tend to hold their fins partially closed unless displaying anyway but females never do, their fins are fully open, even the one that flicks. The males are still displaying and they all play. Haven't noticed any stringy white poo, but then I rarely see them poo anyway as it breaks off quick. They are all eating, nothing to point to ill health apart from the flicking, which has gone from 1 to 3 fish in the past day that I have noticed the first issue, it may be there was mild flicking before but I never noticed it.....come to think of it the second male did bounce off the filter a few days ago, but I didn't really think much of it, it was the female flicking off the ornament that alerted me.

I have shone a torch at them and can't see any white spots or golden dust, trouble is the golden wcmm are white and have a golden shimmer anyway, so pretty hard to say on them.

Gills seem okay, are slightly red but not much more than usual I would say.....no sunken stomachs.........all swim, eat play happily just the odd flicking from 3 of them at the moment........

The snails were only added last night so it can't be them bringing something in as the first female showed signs before then, plus I have read nerites rarely carry flukes due to their tiny size.......I did add a moss ball about a week ago, before I added it I did soak in a solution of Sterazin for a few hours just in case, but maybe it didn't work and something was in there anyway......

I have sterazin, myxazin, protozin, melafix, interpet internal bac med, aquarium salt, epsom salts and stress coat in my fish cupboard, just in case.....so plenty of meds if I should need them.

I think Sterazin might be the way to go but will not add anything until I get more advice.

thanks to anyone who can help.

Updated: just watched the male flicking on ornament. He is not rubbing his body or flicking full lenght of body against things, it is just the face area only that touches the objects they flick against. The female turned so she could get side of face, which made me think of flukes.......this info might help


Im posting here, as I originally posted in tropical fish emergencies, then realized it was the wrong area as they are coldwater lol

I've noticed fish do this when the ammonia is too high for them, what's it reading right now? My Green Sunfish are doing this pretty regularly as there tank cycles.

 

[doggiebag]

the ammonia reading is 0 so is nitrite 0, it has been this way for 2-3 days solid and they have been doing this since yesterday ...... they are not doing it constantly, the main male does it the most, maybe twice an hour for a few flicks, then the other two do the odd flick, they never seem to do it in mornings just later afternoon onwards. The behaviour has escalated in the last day though.....they have never flicked ever in the 60 days I've had them, so this is new. The tank has seen ammonia rise to 0.50 at times but they never flicked then, now its zero they are flicking, typical lol. gotta love those little guys

Im thinking it must be flukes as they flick face rather than body rubbing. Sterazin seems to cover most flukes and parasites, it says its safe for invertebrates so will the two nerites be okay or should I remove them, they have a good foofd source in minnow tank and they course is a 10 day one....

 

[black angel]

try a med for gill flukes first...and remove the snails

 

[doggiebag]

thanks angel, im leaning that way for sure.

I have two more moss balls bought at same time along with some java moss, should I place them in with minnows and treat the lot together, that way it will rid the plants of nasties if it was the cause? There is plenty of space in tank as I removed the light coloured decor in case of medicating, I have seen the damage the dyes can do lol will also add an airstone while medicating

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I agree i think the WCMM's probably have gill flukes, i would treat the whole tank and just remove the snails from the tank during treatment (i don't know for certain if the meds will dye any light colored tank decor although i shouldn't think so)- after finishing treatment, put a carbon sponge in the filter and do a series of water changes to help remove the meds (if the filter already has a carbon sponge in it make sure you remove that before medicating the tank otherwise the meds will not work). Make sure you keep a close eye on the water quality during treatment as some meds can damage the beneficial filter bacteria.

 

[doggiebag]

Thanks for the advice guys. I did a large water change this morning, just in case something was in the water causing an issue and gave them the first dose of sterazin, adding an airstone.
As its nearing cycling completion, I am still testing the water daily anyway, so it will be checked often.
If the water parameters show any problems I will do another waterchange just before the next dose.

Been watching them all morning, no flicking so far today, but it seems to appear more later in the day for some reason, too busy foraging and playing in the morning I guess lol One has been darting a bit though.

Will let you all know how they get on.

 

[doggiebag]

There is now a pattern to the flashing, watched 2 fish flash against decor just now and both were making contact with their faces, mostly underside of chin.....there is also erratic swimming, more darting and flicking behaviour. Not sure if this helps confirm a diagnosis......

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

It does sound more and more like gill flukes, good luck with the treatment .

 

[doggiebag]

okay, thanks, was just worried in case it ends up being velvet and I am using the wrong stuff lol I keep checking them with a torch, however I feed my guys colour enhancing food so they have quite a pronounced golden sheen anyway but they are acting normally, playing and displaying with the odd flicking bout.....

One more thing, I checked their water this morning and the ammonia is back to 0.25 after about 4 days of 0's.......maybe the meds have either knocked bacteria or the fish are stressed producing more? Anyway, I have done a 50% waterchnge, but what to do with the meds?
I am using Sterazin and it is dosed on days, 1,3,6,8 and 10.......should I add back half dose as I removed half with waterchange? I was unwilling to keep them in water with ammonia as this will only stress them further........what is best to do when using this med? Leave it when you waterchange or med back what you removed?

I know when I had to use myxazin on a betta with daily waterchanges, waterlife told me that it disappeared over 24 hours so remeding wasn't vital in that situation........not sure about sterazin though as its a course with set days and myxazin was a daily one, this makes me think sterazin doesn't disappear in 24 hours like myxazin.....

 

[doggiebag]

Okay an update:

I have just added day 10 of the sterazin, its the last dose.........I have sat this afternoon and watched them for a bit. The silver male minnow is still flicking, not whole body, just flicking off the surfaces not shimming along them just a touch off type movement, not rubbing along whole body, although I didn't see any more doing it I guess they must be affected still too. They have not displayed this behaviour in the previous 56 or so days I had them, just 12 days ago till today......

They still feed okay, swim fine and fins okay, they still display to each other. The males have partially clamped fins, but always do unless they display. I see nothing unusual in how they look. Very hard to see golden dust on them as they have that anyway (some golden minnows in there and normal ones are highly metallic), so hard to say, but I am guessing after 10 days, if it was velvet they would look pretty ill by now. I see no white spots and they really don't look any worse 10 days on......just this occasional erratic swimming, like they are irritated, sort of dashing, then the flicking off objects.

What do I do now? I am desperate for help. I am at my wits ends and really have no idea what to try now. Sterazin is a pretty broad spectrum treatment and I hoped it would work.

I do have Waterlife Protozan, I also just got some Esha2000..........

 

[black angel]

if it was an external parasite it would really have become apparant...still having gill problems..hmm...maybe wait couple days after the first treatment then run carbon for 24 hours with another water change...stay with the sterazin.
I think maybe the moss balls may have carried something in or could be the ph...is the shop you get them from local? same ph? water chemistry if not righ can make a difference or maybe something added to the tap water at source..some companies once a week flush the pipes and use a chemical to do it....i found out they did this on a wednesday so never did water changes until at least the friday.
ask the local water company if they flush the pipes and what the chemical composition of the water is..might be something in that..

but i would do another round of sterazin as it does seem to be helping.

 

[doggiebag]

if it was an external parasite it would really have become apparant...still having gill problems..hmm...maybe wait couple days after the first treatment then run carbon for 24 hours with another water change...stay with the sterazin.
I think maybe the moss balls may have carried something in or could be the ph...is the shop you get them from local? same ph? water chemistry if not righ can make a difference or maybe something added to the tap water at source..some companies once a week flush the pipes and use a chemical to do it....i found out they did this on a wednesday so never did water changes until at least the friday.
ask the local water company if they flush the pipes and what the chemical composition of the water is..might be something in that..

but i would do another round of sterazin as it does seem to be helping.

Thanks Black Angel

I change the water in 2 tanks at the same time, the other has a betta and he has been fine, even though he has much larger water changes than the minnows do...... I think it must have been the moss ball too, as it was the only change. I did steralize it in sterazin for a few hours as recommended on the bottle, before adding them, but I guess it didn't work. The rest of the plants I had from same lot I placed in a small spare tank and have given them a full course of sterazin too, just in case lol

I did find a 2 year old post on another forum where someone had flicking fish and used sterazin, they were still flicking at the end of treatment, but 3 days after last dose they stopped......so may be worth waiting a bit longer.......
The shop where I get fish has the same Ph they are in the same area as me. The shop I got the plants from was online and they do show ph for their fish which is .4 above mine.....

I didn't watch them much while treating as I knew I would doubt the treatment if I saw flicking while medicating, so last nigth was the first time I really watched them with it being the last dose. The male who started the flicking bout 10 days back, did a quick erratic swim/dart, then flicked off the plants a few times, that was when I posted this. I continued to watch all night and saw no other fish flicking, and even he didn't flick anymore. Watched this morning for around an hour and still no flicking. They are very active and chasing each other trying to fight over the females, so they seem in high spirits and don't look ill.

I will give them a few more days and see how they go, and will let you know if they flick or not, then we can see if sterazin round 2 is needed or something else. The esha 2000 is supposed to cover most illness including parasites, though it needs to be used with esha exit for white spot and velvet. I continue to look at them with a torch, they are just highly metallic and shiny, no dull patches and I think velvet looks dull doesn't it?

 

[black angel]

I agree to watcha nd wait as the flicking is slowing down...maybe in future do bigger water changes or more of them in a week in case water chemistry is wrong.

If the fish had velvet they would be in a far worse condition than now..

 

[doggiebag]

HI Angel

thanks for your continued support in this, it helps me greatly knowing you are there.

Been watching them like a hawk, the original grey male is still doing the odd flicking and now have noticed a golden male flicking too (he was also one of the original 4 doing it), so it is still is affecting 2 that I can see. They seem to swim a bit erratic/dart then flicking a few times off objects, then return to normal and display again........they will do this a few times a day.....

Was told by a minnow breeder that it may actually be caused by the 2 months of cycling they have gone through, and the flicking may be the irritation of the water, even though my levels were fairly low and I did regular waterchanges. They seemed to think to leave meds for now, do a large waterchange, run carbon then just wait a bit and see what happens, if they slowly stop or get worse. As they are not showing real signs of illness she seems to think its not an actual illness but irritation of water quality, you also mention this too. Also as I only just reached 0's when the flciking started (maybe due to cycling process getting to them) she thought the continued flicking may be aggravated by the meds so will not see a difference till the water is back to normal and continued 0's.

Would you agree this may be the way to go? There water has only recently just reached the 0 ammonia and nitrites levels......I don't want to over medicate, but also don't want them to get really ill...... I did a 50% waterchange yesterday and added carbon, tested today still at 0's, golden male flicked this morning, but it will take a few days I guess to slow if its water......

My LFS suggested I add salt but I wasn't sure of minnow tolerance to salt, or if it would help