Newbie With Questions....

[Devorax]

Hi people. I am a newbie to the hobby and have now managed to get the hang of the basics, I think, but there are a few things I would like to know. It is worth pointing out at this stage that I don't think the problems/issues raised have anything to do with the first massive problem I had when I lost over half my stock.
Okay, it is probably worth mentioning what my set-up is. Here goes
A 60 litre tank, with Interpet PF2 internal filter, air bubble tubing, heater, twin lights, and approx 9 plants.
It's occupants are
1 M Betta, 3 sailfin mollies (2F,1M), 1 Swordtail (M), 10 Guppies (5F,5M), 4 pearl danios, 4 zebra danios, 1 bristlenose plec, 2 apple snails, 2 Black Widow tetras, 1 clown loach, 4 neons, 4 rummy nosed tetras. I should point out that not all of these fish belong in this tank, the guppies belong in a 25 litre tank which has been taken over by some 13 fry until they are big enough to be moved on, SO this is only a temporary situation.

My questions are these
1)The water tests are all fine, the ammonia barely registers, the nitrite levels are slightly above nil, as is the nitrate, as defined by the API Master test kit. Why then, do we find the occasional dead body? They die on average 2 fish a week.

2)A recently bought swordtail female has died of what looks like fungal infection, she was in the LFS with the male, but he has no signs. No other fish have symptoms. I have treated the tank with Interpet 8 but it didn't save her. As she lay dying, she passed what looked like eggs and some bloody material, was this due to illness, or was her death pregnancy induced? What are the chances of the fungus appearing on other fish?

3)The filter should by now be cycled and semi-mature, but there are things visually wrong with the water.Why is there a 'soapy' accumulation at the front of the tank on the surface which doesn't dissipate. What is it and harmful in any way? Also, the water seem cloudy, as if there are dust particles floating around which are NOT drawn in to the filter, even though it's on full power. Why is this?

4)The apple snails have layed eggs. We have 2 clutches now. How can we determine if they are fertile and what the genders are of the snails in order to prevent more?

5)Will the clown loach outgrow the tank? I have seen articles that suggest that they only grow to the size the tanks allow. Although if this is true it is not ideal, it would be a great relief as we would not have to re-home him, as I have gotten quite attached to the little fella.

6)I am thinking of improving filtration. Are under gravel filters worth the effort, are they any use? Can I buy better internal filters or am I better with a small external one? Any great products out there for around £70 or so worth getting?

7)Why aren't my snails and plec keeping the algae down? I have a heavyish growth on one panel of glass which is being ignored by them all. Apart from scraping it, is there any other way to encourage them to remove it?

I do know that there are probably answers to all my questions on this site already, but I have trawled through quite a few pages and find it quite daunting at times, so a direct approach may suit me best. Thanks in advance for any help and advice offered.

 

[paulbr1]

How did you set up the tank. ie. How long did you run it for before adding any fish and did you cycle the tank (build up good bateria in the filter).

It does take a good few weeks to get the tank ready and you could have lost fish initially due to ammonia(toxic) increasing from the fish waste.

I shouldn't admit this but my first tank had a Betta and Guppy's - the male guppies lost.............!

Could you post your figures from the API tests and somebody with more insight will reply.

Scrub that, just noticed your other posts! but the Guppy's will lose..

 

[paulbr1]

re. no.7 Do you have direct sunlight on the tank at any time?

Paul.

 

[hollanda88]

the clown loach will out grow that tank and should really be in a bigger group

andrew

 

[Devorax]

The test results are as follows
ammonia <1ppm, nitrite 1ppm, nitrate 10 ppm. I know these should all be nil, but the tank is still quite new (approx 6 weeks maybe) and with this level of fish the raised levels can be expected. We do 1/3 water changes every other day to keep on top of things anyway.
To answer the sunlight question, no there is never direct sunlight on the tank. Although there may be a simple enough reason to it, I did add Interpet Flora Boost and the aquatic plants have gone ballistic as a result, it might just be opportunistic algae too... but I would still be at a loss to explain with the snails and plec haven't touched it at all.
As for the betta and guppies, they leave each other well alone. The betta is more interested in the black widows than anything in fact, frequently flaring and displaying to them. We have even held late night vigils in the dark using a small blue torch to watch the tank mates to see if any fighting went on. (This was in fact how we found the miracle of the 13 fry, as they were not seen in daylight and only emerged at night. It took 2 hours to catch them all and satisfy ourselves there weren't any left
If anyone has some heavenly tips on the filtration, I would be very grateful.

 

[vinylman]

You say the Ammonia barely registers; the only safe reading for Ammonia (as with nitrites) is ZERO, Anything else will permanently damage the fishes gills. You also have Neon Tetras in there with a Betta - the Neons will nip the fins of the Betta and the Male Guppies (which, BTW, need to be kept in a ratio of at least 2 Females for every Male). In a 60l tank, there's nowhere for the fish to escape being nipped, unfortunately, and the stress will leave them open to further health problems. It's not a great combination of fish, I'm afraid.

 

[Athena]

Sorry to say, but with that amount of fish in a 60 litre tank, even if you do daily water changes to keep the toxins down to the bare minimum (which you seem to be doing), the stress that those fish will be in is enough to cause premature deaths.

Just too many fish in there - plus a slight ammonia reading (I doubt you will ever get a 0 reading because you could do a water change in the morning and by the evening the volume of ammonia is just too much for your filter to handle).

The only way you will prevent more deaths or illness starting up is to rehome some of the fish.

What you could do is buy a little plastic breeder box that will fix into your main tank with suction caps - you can then put the fry in there and put some of the the other fish back in the other tank.

Regards - Athena

 

[kcharley]

Like the others, I think you have too many fish in the tank. Athena's suggestion with the breeder box is a good one. If I've done my math right that would get you to 2 inches of fish per gallon and that is still heavily stocked. IMO, you really need to add another aquarium (but a new aquarium won't be cycled, meaning a fish-in cycle and daily water changes) of at least 20 gallons, find another home for about half the fish or really increase your filtration.

I didn't catch what lighting you have on the tank but I suspect lighting is not the cause of algae problem. There is a school of thought that algae feeds off ammonia, the byproduct of all those fish. Plants also feed off ammonia. If you didn't have those, I bet your algae and fish death problem would be worse. With inadequate filtration or water flow, the ammonia can build up in one portion of the tank. You could test in one area and get decent readings but in other areas have a much worse reading. That is why the filration and flow rates are increased for heavily stocked or heavily planted tanks. In other words, I think your algae problem is another indication you have too heavily stocked the tank.

Please understand I am trying to be helpful, not harsh. If it were me, I would follow Athena's suggestion and start looking for another home for the fish ( Well not really. I have MTS so I would immediately get another aquarium, probably two, with more filters and ... MTS is serious, fun but serious.) Seriously, follow Athena's suggestion and start looking for another home for some of the fish.

Good luck.

Greg

 

[Charlieboy]

Hi people. I would just like to point out that yes there are too many fish in the main tank atm, but there is absolutely no fin nipping going on, in fact everyone's tails are fine. Although I am slightly alarmed at my yellow tailed male guppy which seems to now have a clear 'band' occupying the extremity of his tale
We did have the fry in a 6x6x6 inch fry net in the main tank, but we thought it would stunt their early growth rates, and in fact they have doubled their size in just the few days of having their own tank. I am very keen to up the filtration levels and I am still looking for some sound advice on this point.
I am now getting alarmed by the prolific egg laying being done by the snails, we now have 4 clutches....
I nearly bought a 90 litre tank yesterday, would it have made any real difference, or would there still be too many fish?

 

[Devorax]

Oooops, I did it again.....lol I was signed in on my partner's account when I added the last post, sorry for any confusion.

 

[Athena]

Hi - do you mean you were thinking of swapping the 60litre for a 90 litre or having both? If possible, have both!! That would solve your problem!

If you don't have room for the extra tank then swapping over to a 90 litre will only help a small amount.

And what are you going to do with all those fry once they are bigger? Do you have someone to give them to? You surely won't be able to keep them all - not unless you do go ahead and get another tank - and if you're not careful you will end up in the same situation as you are now, with too many fish crammed into one tank.

Oh and the reason you are going to be over-run with snails is because of your over-stocked conditions and the amount of algae present. Try not to over-feed, too, as any uneaten food that settles in the tank will encourage the snails and keep them reproducing.

The priority here should be to sort out things for all those adult fish you have in a terribly cramped tank, not the fry. If you really can't solve this problem by getting another tank then in the interest of the fish it would be kindest to try to rehome some of them. Ask at your LFS if they will take some off your hands. Or let them have the fry, then you can move some of the adults back to the other tank.

Just trying to help here because I really feel sorry for all those fish.

Please don't just leave them as they are...

Regards - Athena

 

[Devorax]

I think I mentioned earlier that the fry are going to be moved on as soon as they are able avoid being swallowed whole, if I didn't mention it then that is the plan. I am almost certainly going to get the 90 litre tank as a replacement for the 60l, but the missus (whom wears the trousers on these things....lol) says there is a place for the 60l to go to so we can keep it. BUT she hasn't actually said I can keep both, so here's hoping. If it ends up having both tanks, will someone please suggest a decent splitting on the fish between them?

 

[Davo86]

Hi people. I am a newbie to the hobby and have now managed to get the hang of the basics, I think, but there are a few things I would like to know. It is worth pointing out at this stage that I don't think the problems/issues raised have anything to do with the first massive problem I had when I lost over half my stock.
Okay, it is probably worth mentioning what my set-up is. Here goes

A 60 litre tank, with Interpet PF2 internal filter, air bubble tubing, heater, twin lights, and approx 9 plants.
It's occupants are
1 M Betta, 3 sailfin mollies (2F,1M), 1 Swordtail (M), 10 Guppies (5F,5M), 4 pearl danios, 4 zebra danios, 1 bristlenose plec, 2 apple snails, 2 Black Widow tetras, 1 clown loach, 4 neons, 4 rummy nosed tetras. I should point out that not all of these fish belong in this tank, the guppies belong in a 25 litre tank which has been taken over by some 13 fry until they are big enough to be moved on, SO this is only a temporary situation.

If you are overstocking, even if it is just temporary, then you need to be increasing the filtration, (although this will only help so much)

My questions are these
1)The water tests are all fine, the ammonia barely registers, the nitrite levels are slightly above nil, as is the nitrate, as defined by the API Master test kit. Why then, do we find the occasional dead body? They die on average 2 fish a week.

Unfortunately the water tests are not fine, if you have trace ammonia or nitrite that is bad, sensitive fish like neons won't last long in even 0.1 ammonia or nitrite, basicly these two elements are poisons and even in small quantities poisons can do a lot of harm.

2)A recently bought swordtail female has died of what looks like fungal infection, she was in the LFS with the male, but he has no signs. No other fish have symptoms. I have treated the tank with Interpet 8 but it didn't save her. As she lay dying, she passed what looked like eggs and some bloody material, was this due to illness, or was her death pregnancy induced? What are the chances of the fungus appearing on other fish?

Poor water quality causes great stress to fish, once the fish is stressed bacteria and parasites in the water are able to attack the fish as their immune systems will have become weaker and will not be able to fight back the diseases

3)The filter should by now be cycled and semi-mature, but there are things visually wrong with the water.Why is there a 'soapy' accumulation at the front of the tank on the surface which doesn't dissipate. What is it and harmful in any way? Also, the water seem cloudy, as if there are dust particles floating around which are NOT drawn in to the filter, even though it's on full power. Why is this?

How long has the tank been setup for? as the tank is overstocked the filter can't cope with the amount of waste being produced. cloudy water is a sign that there is more waste being produced than bacteria to detoxify it

4)The apple snails have layed eggs. We have 2 clutches now. How can we determine if they are fertile and what the genders are of the snails in order to prevent more?

Snails only thrive in a tank when there is plenty of food in the tank, i.e. this means you are overfeeding the fish as the snails are getting a share in the food. reduce feeding to once every other day, -this will also help with the water quality issue

5)Will the clown loach outgrow the tank? I have seen articles that suggest that they only grow to the size the tanks allow. Although if this is true it is not ideal, it would be a great relief as we would not have to re-home him, as I have gotten quite attached to the little fella.

Yes it will easily, people who say fish only grow to the size of the tank are ignorant to the truth, Clown loaches are indeed a slow growing species, but they will still eventually reach 8-9 inches eventually, the main issue i have is that the clown loach is being kept alone, This is one species that should Never be kept alone, they are such a social fish in the wild and often when kept alone they seem to not do so well.

6)I am thinking of improving filtration. Are under gravel filters worth the effort, are they any use? Can I buy better internal filters or am I better with a small external one? Any great products out there for around £70 or so worth getting?

tbh you need a bigger tank, the swordtails, sailfin molly, clown loach and Bristlenose all require a bigger tank

7)Why aren't my snails and plec keeping the algae down? I have a heavyish growth on one panel of glass which is being ignored by them all. Apart from scraping it, is there any other way to encourage them to remove it?

algae is a plant and fish waste is a fertiliser, the algae presence is most likely to be the one thing that is preventing the water stats from being even worse

I do know that there are probably answers to all my questions on this site already, but I have trawled through quite a few pages and find it quite daunting at times, so a direct approach may suit me best. Thanks in advance for any help and advice offered.

HTH

 

[kcharley]

Hi Devorax,

It is great that you are concerned about your fish and what to do.

I agree with Athena, replacing the 60 with a 90 will help but not enough. I'm not familar with your filter. Does it have the flow rate to handle a larger tank? If not you will need a new filter. It gets expensive fast, doesn't it? My point is the sooner you can get the guppies back to their original tank, the better. Both tanks will still be heavily stocked but it is probably workable at that point.

You may have a filtration issue when you get the guppies back into their original tank. If the bacteria colonies have adjusted to the light load of the fry then putting all the guppies in at once may be too much for the filter to process immediately. You will probably have to do frequent water changes until the bacteria colonies grow to handle the load.

HTH.

Greg

 

[Athena]

I think I mentioned earlier that the fry are going to be moved on as soon as they are able avoid being swallowed whole, if I didn't mention it then that is the plan. I am almost certainly going to get the 90 litre tank as a replacement for the 60l, but the missus (whom wears the trousers on these things....lol) says there is a place for the 60l to go to so we can keep it. BUT she hasn't actually said I can keep both, so here's hoping. If it ends up having both tanks, will someone please suggest a decent splitting on the fish between them?

Hi - sorry, I missed that bit about the guppies being rehomed elsewhere! I just hope you don't lose too many fish from your main tank in the meantime.

Let's hope you do get to keep both the 90 litre and 60 litre (and I guess you will still have the 25 litre?).

Ok - presuming you will end up with all three tanks, here's an idea for splitting your stock. It's a difficult mix of fish to split, really, and someone else might come up with a better split.

25 Litre:

Male betta

60 Litre

10 guppies
4 zebra danios
4 pearl danios

90 litre

1 bristlenose plec
3 sailfin mollies
1 swordtail
2 black widows
4 neons
4 rummies

As for the clown loach - best advice is to rehome him asap. He shouldn't be on his own (he will pine for company and eventually get sick - they are very sensitive fish to keep) - and he will outgrow even this 90 litre tank, in time.

The reason I have kept the tetras away from the guppy tank is the chance of them fin-nipping. The plec needs a minimum of 90 litres, so he's first in there!

The male betta will be best off in that little 25litre tank on his own - put some plants and a little hidey cave and he will love it and be less stressed with nobody to compete with.

Hope that's of some help!

Athena