Newbie To Plants Doing My Research First. Questions!

[cowgirluntamed]

So, here is the set up I'm eventually looking for to possibly have. I want to upgrade my 20 gal tank to a 75 gal somewhat planted, low tech tank that isn't a mess to set up and get going. I've never done live plants before. Here is what I was thinking, but not sure if it's good or not.
 
I'd like to put in the Carib-Sea Peace River gravel as the substrate. I have looked at the options of dirt and also the complete plant substrates but not sure if they are really for me. I don't want a heavily planted tank.
 
Lighting would probably be some sort of LED light, just not sure which type. I would also probably do an HOB filter as well, just not sure which kind yet.
 
The plants I'm thinking about are maybe two or more types of Jungle Vals and Dwarf Sag. Maybe adding moss balls as well. I do kinda like the look of the water sprite but not sure if that would be a good plant to actually plant in a gravel substrate or just let it float? I'm not sure I want a floating plant but not a clue at this time...
 
This tank will also be a mostly tetra tank, maybe white cloud mountain minnows, and some harlequin rasboras with at least one school of cory cats on the bottom and at least one bristlenose pleco to help with algae.
 
One of my main questions is...should I get the tank set up first and cycled, and then start adding the fish and then the plants after once it's set up? Or should I plant them first thing? I would be starting with all new filter material and such so I know it will need to be cycled. My water parameters at the moment are a PH of 8.2 that is stable and I do have a .25ppm of Ammonia reading but it is also stable in my non planted tank(though I use the marineland combo of carbon and ammonia nutralizing stuff as well to help). Nitrites are 0 and nitrates are under 10 if I keep up with water changes. Temperature is 78 which is where I'd like to keep it as well in a bigger tank(even if it takes two heaters ) My glow lights and black neon tetras seem to love this water even though it's a higher pH. I've seen both of them display breeding behavior(though no eggs that I could see, not that I'm interested in breeding them anyway) though since adding the black neons the glow lights haven't done that. *shrugs* Fish....lol. My bristle nose pleco also is doing quite well and enjoying the tank and is not shy at all!
 
Another question is, fertilizers? What would the best be to add and how often?(I know this can differ from tank to tank). Would I need anything special with these types of plants or would like dosing with Seachem Flourish be enough? And what about some kind of root tab? I just started reading about those. Everything is so confusing! But if I do a planted tank, even lightly planted, I want to make sure I do it right!
 
Anyway, I think these are my main questions right now. I don't yet have money to get a big tank like that but I think it would be awesome to have! This is why I'm doing all this research first so I know what I want when I get it! If you want any more info just please let me know. Any advice is greatly appreciated!! Thanks!

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF as you are a new member.  I've had thriving low-tech or natural planted tanks for over 20 years; welcome to this aspect of the hobby too.  To your questions.
 
Substrate.  I find plain sand or fine gravel to be the best.  Whichever is up to you, but consider your fish; you mention corys, so sand is definitely preferred here; they like to sift it through their gills, a natural behaviour.  A dark colour or mix will be more natural and easier to maintain.  Avoid white.
 
Light.  LED can certainly work, but there is such variety that you need to know exactly what you are getting, and it is expensive.  I will let others with direct LED knowledge deal with this.  I am using T8 fluorescent.
 
Filter.  On a 75g planted tank, I would not suggest HOB.  A canister is better both for the fish and plants.  I've had both, for years.
 
Plants.  What are your source water parameters, meaning GH (hardness) and pH.  You do mention a ph OF 8.2, is this the source (presumably tap) water of the tank water?  And remember to outgas the CO2 when testing tap water for pH.  GH is important for fish, and some plants.  As you intend forest fish, floating plants are important.  These fish expect a roof over them, not bright light, and many of them will be more colourful and exhibit natural behaviours with floating plants.  Fertilizers depend upon your GH (the "hard" minerals occur here primarily), fish load and feeding.  Plus the species of plants and the light.  There has to be a balance of light (intensity and duration) and nutrients at the level required by the specific plants, or else algae will likely be troublesome.  A comprehensive liquid supplement is the first stage, and may be all you need; I use Flourish Comprehensive Supplement and have for years, and I'm also using Flourish Trace (I have very soft water).  Substrate tabs (like Flourish Tabs) are good for individual larger plants like the large swords, aponogeton, etc.
 
Not much to say on the fish at this stage, but watch your parameters, which includes temperature here.  White clouds for instance need cooler temperatures than high 70's.  Not all tropical fish share "tropical" temperatures which can vary from high 60's to low 80's across species.  And I would certainly recommend two good heaters for a 4-foot tank (which the 75g will likely be), one at each end next to the filter intake and return (another reason for a canister, you can have a natural flow down the tank).
 
I always "silent cycle" new tanks, which means I aquascape them with the wood, rock (if any) and plants and once everything is running, add a few small fish and gradually increase.  Ammonia and nitrite will be zero throughout.  You need some fast-growing plants, and here floating are ideal.  The biological system develops naturally, and should have no issues.
 
Hope this is of some help; feel free to ask further.
 
Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks for the great info Byron!
 
The carib-sea peace river gravel says it's 1-2mm and that it's ok for cories. Is that size ok? It's also a nice natural river looking gravel that I like as I'm not really into having black or what gravel/sand in my tank. I haven't really looked at size too much though I knew they needed (if graveled) a smooth gravel. Also, I looked at some of the sand substrates and it just seems pool filter sand would be too white and some have said that play sand can be really dirty to deal with. I read to that plants don't like sand as well as a finer gravel where their roots don't have to push through and possibly get gas trapped in the sand and all of that. Seems complicated to deal with! Lol.
 
I also never knew that about the white clouds either. I was mostly researching the tetras at the moment. I was just going off of that because I saw some white clouds in the same tank as a type of tetra at Petsmart. And after reading everything I've read...I don't think it said anywhere about the tetras liking and needing floating plants! No wonder my glowlights mostly stay towards the middle/bottom of my 20 gal. So I guess water sprite would be a good choice as it doesn't get out of control like duckweed and such. I don't want to deal with that! Lol.
 
As with the lighting, I know they make Plant LEDs (marineland has one as well as some other brands). So I may try one of those. I just have a regular marineland LED light on this 20 gal but it's not a plant light since I don't have plants.
 
As for the water, it's well water so not chlorinated or anything. I know it's hard water by the buildup that gets on the dogs water bowls and the sinks and all that such stuff! Lol. Though I've been thinking of getting a kit to actually see what it is. I may do that next time I'm on that side of town in a couple of weeks or so. So, if the GH is for hardness, what is the KH actually for? I've tried to read about it but my mind always seems to start scrambling around all that information. I have tested straight from the tap before, but never knew to outgas it. How long should I let the water sit before I test it?
 
Do you have a preference on what type of canister filter would work best? I've never dealt with those whatsoever as I've only had a small 10 gallon tank a long time ago as a kid and now this 20 gallon. I will look more into the canister filters though. And I know a lot of this stuff can cost money but I do want to do it right. Even if it takes a while to accumulate all of this stuff over time so I don't spend a ton right off the bat. I'm ok with that.
 
Are the Jungle Val species considered fast growing? Nothing I've read about them says either way. As for the water sprite, I'm not sure about the fast growing but I know it said it liked to float more than to be planted. Just might need some root trimming a bit? I know the jungle val and dwarf sag propogate by runners which should be easy enough to take care of if I want to prune them back or to even add more to the tank in different places.
 
And for a 75 gallon, after everything is set up, how long do I wait to add the fish? I know the plants sort of well, not break the cycle but help the cycle more to where you can add the fish faster, right? Or sooner I should say, not faster. How many fish would be ok to start with? I'd probably go with glow light tetras as the ones I currently have seem very VERY hardy(they've been through different meds for other sick fish and these guys never have gotten sick!). I know they need to be in a school and right now I have six and they seem pretty happy. But in a bigger tank I wouldn't mind having maybe 10 or so of them. But I don't want to overload the tank all at once if 10 is too many! They do, at least at this store, come really really small as well and take some time to grow up which is fun to watch! I love my fishies....heh.
 
Anway, again, thanks for all this info! Now I get to have MORE dreams about a big tank.....yes, I've been thinking so much on this stuff that I've started to have fish tank dreams...heh.
 
Kristen

 

[Byron]

The carib-sea peace river gravel says it's 1-2mm and that it's ok for cories. Is that size ok? It's also a nice natural river looking gravel that I like as I'm not really into having black or what gravel/sand in my tank. I haven't really looked at size too much though I knew they needed (if graveled) a smooth gravel. Also, I looked at some of the sand substrates and it just seems pool filter sand would be too white and some have said that play sand can be really dirty to deal with. I read to that plants don't like sand as well as a finer gravel where their roots don't have to push through and possibly get gas trapped in the sand and all of that
 

 
Being "OK" and being the best are two different things.  Yes, fine gravel that is not rough can work for corys, I had this for many years before I switched to sand; but now I would never subject corys to anything but sand again.  Aside from the issue of their barbels, all corydoras naturally sift through the sand, sometimes partially upending themselves with their snouts buried past their gills.  Then they sift the sand and expel it through the gill slits. They cannot do this with gravel.  If you want to provide the best for fish, and I'm sure we all do, use sand.
 
To sand, I use play sand in six of seven tanks and have had it for 3+ years now.  I've had no issues, plants are thriving, corys and loaches love it, it resembles the sands in many Amazon streams...can't say much more.  I did have black once, but it was more of a dull gark gray under the lighting, and every speck of detritus showed.  This never happens with the play sand that is a mix of black/white/gray/buff.  Don't have it too deep; an overall depth of between two and three inches is sufficient, with more of this toward the back and less at the front.  Malaysian Livebearing snails help keep it aerated, as do plant roots.
 

As for the water, it's well water so not chlorinated or anything. I know it's hard water by the buildup that gets on the dogs water bowls and the sinks and all that such stuff! Lol. Though I've been thinking of getting a kit to actually see what it is. I may do that next time I'm on that side of town in a couple of weeks or so. So, if the GH is for hardness, what is the KH actually for? I've tried to read about it but my mind always seems to start scrambling around all that information. I have tested straight from the tap before, but never knew to outgas it. How long should I let the water sit before I test it?
 

 
You should be able to ascertain the GH and KH from your municipal water people, likely on their website.  GH is the general hardness and this matters to fish (and somewhat to certain plants if it is very soft or very hard).  KH is carbonate hardness or Alkalinity, and refers to the bicarbonates; this buffers pH to prevent fluctuations, and it is worth knowing the level for your water.  I would get the GH and KH from the water people first, as you may not need a test kit once you know what it is unless you decide to alter the water chemistry which is another huge issue and not all that easy.
 
Testing pH in tap water requires that you out-gas the CO2 to get a more accurate reading; this isn't necessary with tank water, or with GH/KH.  Two methods to do this.  Shake some water briskly for several minutes in a sealed jar, then test.  Or let a glass of tap water sit for 24 hours before testing.  CO2 will dissipate out of the water either method.
 

Do you have a preference on what type of canister filter would work best?
 

 
Every member will likely have their favourite canister, and there are many good ones.  Eheim has the track record for reliability; my two Eheims have been running since 1996 and 1998, continually, and never an issue or failing.  I also have a Rena Filstar XP3 bought 4 years ago.  Something to consider is a built-in heating unit, which avoids heaters in the tank.  One of my Eheim has this, and I wish I had more of them.
 

Are the Jungle Val species considered fast growing? Nothing I've read about them says either way. As for the water sprite, I'm not sure about the fast growing but I know it said it liked to float more than to be planted. Just might need some root trimming a bit? I know the jungle val and dwarf sag propogate by runners which should be easy enough to take care of if I want to prune them back or to even add more to the tank in different places.
 

 
Vallisneria is a fairly fast-growing plant; stem plants and floating plants are the fastest.  Jungle Vall is huge, the leaves can get over 5 feet.  But Vallisneria of any kind will do well in harder water.  I love Water Sprite as a floating plant; the species Ceratopteris cornuta is best floating, and the other two species can be floated or planted but need good light if planted.  Faster growing plants require more light (intensity) and nutrients, for probably obvious reasons.
 
I have found the pygmy chain sword to be better than dwarf Sagittaria in my tanks, but that may just be my conditions.  Either is a nice substrate plant.
 

And for a 75 gallon, after everything is set up, how long do I wait to add the fish? I know the plants sort of well, not break the cycle but help the cycle more to where you can add the fish faster, right? Or sooner I should say, not faster. How many fish would be ok to start with? I'd probably go with glow light tetras as the ones I currently have seem very VERY hardy(they've been through different meds for other sick fish and these guys never have gotten sick!). I know they need to be in a school and right now I have six and they seem pretty happy. But in a bigger tank I wouldn't mind having maybe 10 or so of them. But I don't want to overload the tank all at once if 10 is too many!
 

 
Once the tank is planted (with new equipment I would give it a day/night or two just to ensure filter and heaters are working and the temp is stable) you can add the first fish.  Some are better than others, not for the cycling issue but the new set-up will not be biologically established which takes 2-3 months after the first fish.  Glowlight tetra would be OK, and you could have a group of say 12 or so.  This small a fish in a 75g would not have any issues with cycling, plants or no plants.  Then after a few days, add the next species.  Shoaling fish that need groups are always best when introduced together as the entire group.  You should also consider a quarantine tank for new fish once the tank is established.
 
The benefit of live plants is that they need nitrogen, and aquatic plants prefer it in the form of ammonium.  The ammonia produced by fish and the breakdown of organics is taken up directly by plants and converted into ammonium (in basic water; in acidic water ammonia automatically changes into ammonium) and plants can take up quite a lot of it.  They do this faster than the nitrifying bacteria, though some ammonia will get used by the bacteria that will naturally appear and increase.  You can push this quite far without any issues, but anyone starting out should take it slow.
 
I'm attaching a photo of one of my larger tanks, the 70g Flooded Amazon Forest, to illustrate some of what I've been suggesting.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

 
You should be able to ascertain the GH and KH from your municipal water people, likely on their website.

 
I have well water. No municipal water people to ask. Lol. Checked at petsmart yesterday but they didn't have any tests for only the GH/KH. I'll eventually order that online(have to buy hay for my horse this week so no money for extra stuff). However, I did go ahead and do a test on my tap water for the rest of the stuff today after letting a glass of water sit out for just over 24 hours. Here are the results.
 
I did the pH first, and looked at it right after I shook the tube a bit. It said 8.0. However, I looked again after I did the rest of the tests(not quite 10 minutes later for that one), and it said 8.2, just like what I test from my aquarium.
 
Ammonia was actually higher in my tap water at 0.5ppm, where as in my tank it is always 0.25. I do put in the Marineland Carbon/Ammonia nuetralizing blend though so hopefully this changes it to ammonium, which I know will give the same reading as ammonia.
 
Nitrites are 0. So is my tank.
 
Nitrates are 5 in tap water which is what I try to keep it at in my tank, though this time it was 10. (It was 5 on the 2nd).
 
No live plants in this tank, though I've been having some issues with my black neons after missing a water change. Thought it to be columnaris but they are still going strong except with some spots that I do believe are finally healing. (Treated with melafix for a week, then melafix/pimafix together for a week, then just pimafix for a week, and now just going to keep tank clean). Still not sure what's up with them but they are swimming and eating. I think my female(might be the only female of the 6 black neons...) may have a nipped tail fin unless it's something else. None of the others have the fin thing. And my glow lights are doing just fine. So I'm pretty sure it's not columnaris or even a true fungus if it's not spreading to them. Anyway...that's off subject....sorry!
 

 
Jungle Vall is huge, the leaves can get over 5 feet.

 
 
Actually, the jungle vall you are speaking of is the Giant Vall. The normal jungle Val only gets maybe 2-3 feet(not exactly sure). I'm looking at the corkscrew val for sure and maybe one or two other "types" of the val that I've seen. So it would be that, plus the water sprite for sure and the dwarf sag. All of these plants that I looked up on different sites said they are low light plants. As for the LED lights, the current one I have is not a plant light, but it says it is 7500k. The actual plant light that I was looking at by the same company(Marineland), is only 6500k, but it's also RGB(full spectrum light then?). The other only has a little blue. Does this play a difference in the actual light the plant recieves? Is the RGB better than a regular LED then?
 
So, if I do get a 75 gallon and still have these fish in my 20, can I put them ALL(6 glow light tetras, 6 black neon tetras[if they are healthy], and my one bristlenose pleco-these fish are all grown(some bigger some smaller) except the pleco, she is, last time I measured her, 2 3/4in) in the 75 gallon all at once or should I do like a group at a time for a few days apart? I'd like to keep the 20 going till I at least get the 75 filled so I can have a quarantine tank with any new fish I get.
 
That's a nice 70 gallon tank you have. Though I don't intend to do anything heavily planted like that(at the moment). Though the ammonia/ammonium thing....I've got Mopani driftwood in my 20 gal and it's never once changed my pH. I thought the tannins were supposed to lower it? That's one reason I got it other than it's got a nice look to it. I've got 2 small pieces and a decent sized medium piece in there(It's almost as long as my aquarium is tall). When I do a water change the water is always slightly tinted though not too heavily. Will the plants still use ammonia in higher pH water?
 
Thanks again for all the info Byron It's really helping out.
 
Kristen

 

[Byron]

I won't get into the fish "disease" issue other than to say be very careful with medications.  Characins (tetras, hatchets, pencils) are extremely sensitive to all chemicals and medications.  I won't go into the physiological reasons for this with characins, but one should only use medications when absolutely necessary and when the problem is reasonably certain.  Resorting to any medication is always my last resort, and in many cases I don't get that far.  Now to specifics.
 

Actually, the jungle vall you are speaking of is the Giant Vall. The normal jungle Val only gets maybe 2-3 feet(not exactly sure). I'm looking at the corkscrew val for sure and maybe one or two other "types" of the val that I've seen.
 

 
Several species of plants will attain different sizes depending upon a number of factors unique to each tank.  "Giant" or "Jungle" Vallisneria grows large, whether it is 2-3 feet in this tank and five feet in that tank or seven feet in another tank.  And Kasselmann says this plant can attain 7 feet.  Whatever, it is large.  Of course, common names are next to useless when identifying plants, like most fish, and the genus Vallisneria has recently undergone reclassification and I'm not sure how many "large" species there may be.
 

As for the LED lights, the current one I have is not a plant light, but it says it is 7500k. The actual plant light that I was looking at by the same company(Marineland), is only 6500k, but it's also RGB(full spectrum light then?). The other only has a little blue. Does this play a difference in the actual light the plant recieves? Is the RGB better than a regular LED then?
 

 
The "K" number is the colour temperature (nothing to do with heat temperature) or Kelvin rating.  Sunlight is around 6000K (can't remember the exact number, I think it is in the high 5000's).  A lower K means warmer light, while a higher K means cooler light.  Warm is more red and less blue, cool is the opposite.  Studies have shown the best plant growth with light between 5000K and 7000K.  I use a mix of 5000K and 6500K tubes on my dual-tube tanks, and on single-tube tanks one 6500K tube or CFL bulbs.  This also renders fairly accurately the natural colours of plants and fish.
 
You have to be careful with too much blue.  Much aquarium lighting is in the blue range mainly because of marine tanks with corals that must have this; sometimes it is actinic.  While blue is essential for plant photosynthesis, so also is red.  Adding green to the mix creates the 6000K range that is so common.  Checking the MArineland site, it seems RGB stands for red, green and blue.  So this would presumably meet the wavelengths I just mentioned.  I don't like recommending any light I have not personally used or seen over an aquarium, so I can't say this is or isn't a good light.  And one has to compare the intensity (which is distinct from the colour or spectrum) as this can vary a great deal from light to light in LED, T8, or whatever.
 

So, if I do get a 75 gallon and still have these fish in my 20, can I put them ALL(6 glow light tetras, 6 black neon tetras[if they are healthy], and my one bristlenose pleco-these fish are all grown(some bigger some smaller) except the pleco, she is, last time I measured her, 2 3/4in) in the 75 gallon all at once or should I do like a group at a time for a few days apart? I'd like to keep the 20 going till I at least get the 75 filled so I can have a quarantine tank with any new fish I get
 

.
You could add all the mentioned fish at once to a planted 75g tank.  Then slowly acquire the additional fish (more of the tetra species for example).  Good idea to keep the 20g as a QT; I have a 20g running permanently with a few plants that I use to QT new fish for 5-6 weeks.  So, if I do get a 75 gallon and still have these fish in my 20, can I put them ALL(6 glow light tetras, 6 black neon tetras[if they are healthy], and my one bristlenose pleco-these fish are all grown(some bigger some smaller) except the pleco, she is, last time I measured her, 2 3/4in) in the 75 gallon all at once or should I do like a group at a time for a few days apart? I'd like to keep the 20 going till I at least get the 75 filled so I can have a quarantine tank with any new fish I get.  Very wise these days.
 

Though the ammonia/ammonium thing....I've got Mopani driftwood in my 20 gal and it's never once changed my pH. I thought the tannins were supposed to lower it? That's one reason I got it other than it's got a nice look to it. I've got 2 small pieces and a decent sized medium piece in there(It's almost as long as my aquarium is tall). When I do a water change the water is always slightly tinted though not too heavily. Will the plants still use ammonia in higher pH water?
 

 
Organic matter like wood, dry leaves, peat, etc will naturally acidify the water and thus lower the pH.  However, the extent to which this occurs depends upon the initial GH, KH and pH of the source water.  I would either test your well water somewhere reliably (a good fish store, but make sure you get the numbers, not some vague "sort of hard" or "it's OK" which mean nothing.  The API liquid GH/KH test kit is a good one, I use it, and getting it online will probably be less expensive.  Once we kow the GH and KH it will be easier to answer the pH question.  But I have never found wood, and I have a lot of it in my tanks, to have a significant effect on the water parameters.  But again, this depends upon several other factors, especially the GH/KH.  If the latter is significant, the pH is not going to change much if at all without diluting the GH/KH first.
 
The amber/yellowish tint is from the tannins leeching out.  Unsightly (to many) but otherwise completely harmless, and many fish appreciate them.
 
Plants will grab ammonia/ammonium, which ever is present.  They convert the ammonia to ammonium to use as their nitrogen, and sometimes take up straight ammonia as a toxin as well, which they can use for other purposes.  With sufficient plants and some fast-growers among them, you will never see ammonia or nitrite provided the fish load is balanced for the aquarium.