New To Hobby... Need Help!

[Sephroth57]

---Cliffnotes at bottom if you dont feel like readin the whole story


Well where to start lol. Lets see this all started when browsing some shops with my girlfriend we came across some african dwarf frogs in tiny plastic boxes in a store run by some asians. I had seen these similar setups before in brookstone so i was semi familiar with them. My gf being a girl of course thinks these things are so cute and impulse buys one right there. they explain we just drop in 4 pellets 2x a week to feed these 2 frogs in this small container, Ok no problem. So later on we get home i look up these frogs online, people are saying you should have at least 1 gallon per frog, they should be eating more often, etc. so i tell her these living conditions are pretty bad based on what im seeing here, so she is freaking out omg we need to save them. So the next day we go to petsmart buy a 2 gallon cheap plastic tank with a little filter setup, some decorations, and a "gold mystery snail" to toss in with the frogs. So we set up the new tank, put in some stuff to make tap water safe (we knew nothing about cycling) and toss in the frogs and snail. they seem to like their home and all seems well

so after visiting the pet store again we want to get more fish but we know the tank is too small, so we buy a 10 gallon tank with a nice filter. again set it up quickly (uncycled) and put in our frogs, new decorations/hiding places for them. and also add in 2 ghost catfish and 2 cory catfish. everyone seems happy, though the frogs dont seem to be eating i think they are put off by the new more active environment and spend most of their time hiding.

so everything looks good for 2 days, and my girlfriends fish obsession continues and she buys 3 fancy guppies, and 3 mollys (a dalmation lyretail, a mickey mouse and some other red/black one) since the sales person said you should get at least 3 of each since they are school fish. as we got home to add them into the tank, we noticed the smaller of my ghostfish looks dead, laying on the bottom just wiggling a little on its side! i stick my net in to poke it and it swims off a little.. but its swimming all messed up and the back half of its body is white and not see through! the other bigger ghostcatfish is swimming around fine but his tail looks like someone took a bite out of it and is swimming kind of funny. i dont know what could have done this to them , it was only the cory catfish , frogs, and ghostfish in the tank together for a day. and the store we got them from had all 4 of those fish in the same tank together with no problems.. i couldnt imagine the frogs doing this. so i scooped out the dying ghostfish to put him out of its misery, it was a goner. and the other one is still surviving..

so in any case we added the new fish, probably not a good idea but nowhere else to put them really..



--Cliffnotes
noobs buy african frogs from store in tiny container
buy bigger tank for them & a snail
buy 10 gallon tank for them, and add more fish!
a fish died! and 1 looks injured


soo, after readin on this site for a while im seeing i should have cycled but it is too late now my fish are all in there. some people are saying with frequent water changes you dont need to cycle. is there some kind of chemicals or things i should be adding to the tank to help them? the only thing i have right now is some aquasafe stuff to make tap water safe to use, and some water clarifier to clear up cloudy water from overfeeding..

also im not sure if my frogs like being in the tank with all these fish, should we just move them back to the 2 gallon tank alone? they dont seem to be eating and its hard to feed them now since the other fish eat their pellets / bloodworms

 

[Curiosity101]

Right...first things first Hiya . Welcome to TFF you're in the right place.

Yes move the frogs back to the 2gal ASAP (possibly with the snail if you like) 1. They be being poisoned 2. They will feel uncomfortable in such cramped/busy conditions due to the other fish 3. They will very easily be out competed for food. Edit: Ooops I see you've noticed they're being outcompeted for food... at least that is proof to yourself that at least some of what I'm saying may be correct

Secondly, buy a water test kit straight away. API Liquid master test kit would be good, but if you can't afford that straight off then the most important thing for you right now is to get an ammonia liquid test kit, closely followed by buying a nitrite test kit.

Once the test kit(s) are ordered/ purchased read the guides on:
Cyling
Fish-in Cycling <-- the situation you are in with both tanks
Fishless Cycling <-- the preferred method imo as it's best for the fish and requires the least work.

Once you've read all of the above you should be in a better situation to decide exactly what you want to do with regards to cycling the tank. I personally would suggest returning all the fish and cycling the tank fishlessly but if you want to do it fish-in then that is your choice. I just really recommend you do it properly (following the guide above and starting a thread for additional help from members on here).

Overall the tank you have is nowhere near big enough for the fish you have it in anyways, let alone to cycle with! In a 10gal tank IF I were to do a fish in cycle I would have a single guppy. Nothing else.
Atm you have:
1 x Ghost catfish
2 x Cory catfish
3 x Guppy
3 x Molly
2 x ADF
1 x Apple snail

Presumably the ADF and Apple snails are being removed to the 2gal so that will help. But seeing as the ghost catfish, corys (depending on species) and mollys are all too big for that tank long term anyways then I'd suggest either getting a larger tank or returning them. This will make the fish-in cycle easier on you and the remaining fish if you do this.
For the corys only the smallest species will be happy in a 10gal long term - pandas and pygmys.
For the mollys you need a 60l (2ft long) tank unless they're sailfin mollys in which case you need more like a 3ft long tank (about 100l)
For the ghost catfish - they grow to 15cm and also need a 3ft long tank tbh. Also they should be in a shoal of at least 5 for them to feel comfortable and happy.

Note: Mollys and guppys aren't shoaling fish. Ghost cats and cory cats are so should be in groups of 5 or more of their own species, however don't buy anymore fish due to the situation you're in and the fact that you may be adding yet more unsuitable fish to the tank.

Once you've read all this, go and do 2 x 80% water changes. This will dilute the ammonia in the 10gal to a safe level hopefully (I can give you more accurate percentages if you give your tank water stats, but presuming you don't have a test kit 2 x 80% should hopefully do it). It wont keep them low though and with that many fish in there the ammonia will sky rocket fast, hence why your own test kit is so necessary.

And finally, don't trust anyone in any of the pets stores you've been in so far. They've put you in a horrible situation and given you incorrect advice.
There is alot more I could say on the fish/animals etc but I've just addressed the most important bits first.

 

[Sephroth57]

thanks for the quick reply. yeah im really suprised that mostly everything the people at these different pet stores is wrong. i really dont want my fish to die! how exactly do you do a 80% water change? just take some kind of large container and keep scooping water out, dump that, and put new water in? should i keep adding the aquasafe tapwater stuff?

i will definately be moving the frogs & snail back into the 2 gallon tank cause i havent seen them eat yet once in the 10 gallon tank. what is their optimal feeding schedule? ive been told 2x a week, 3x, every day... not really sure what to do. ive been throwing food in but even if i land a pellet right on their head they dont even eat it.

and i will buy a test kit and post results soon

 

[Sephroth57]

oh and i dont know if it matters but i forgot to mention we also have 2 moss ball plants in there also. supposedly they absorb bad stuff and we can take them out and squeeze em out like sponges... is this good?

 

[Curiosity101]

You're spot on with the water change. Basically 80% is a rough guide but what it stands for it ALOT. lol. It's a 10gal tank so try to empty out as much water as possibly without removing the fish. So just empty it down till they have 2-3" of water left. Refil by putting a measured amount of water into your bucket/container and dose with the correct amount of tap safe. Try to get it as close to the tank temp as possible (using your hand as a guide will get you close enough).
Once you're done, give in an hour or so and repeat once more.

Oh, don't forget to switch the filter and heater off before you start. You don't want to go running them dry!

I've seen people on here feed their frogs daily/every other day on a mixture of pellets/blood worm. So good on your for getting them the right foods I'm guessing that was from searching online?

oh and i dont know if it matters but i forgot to mention we also have 2 moss ball plants in there also. supposedly they absorb bad stuff and we can take them out and squeeze em out like sponges... is this good?

Moss balls are super slow growing plants and so do nothing to impact on your water conditions. They certainly don't act like sponges for 'bad things'. But they do act like sponges...in the sense they soak lots of water up so you can squeeze them like a sponge. You don't want to do that though...you'll just end up with them floating for ages and looking a bit mishapen.

 

[Sephroth57]

oh do i need to cycle the frogs 2 gallon tank or are they different than the fish with cycling

 

[Curiosity101]

Once you've read about cycling you'll understand. Basically if there is ammonia and a filter in a tank then it will cycle... it's a natural process. It's just that fishless cycling gets it ready to deal with ammonia without exposing the fish/animals to it whilst the filter bacteria grow.

So yes the frogs are also in a fish-in cycling situation. But I figured first things first would be sorting out the super stocked fish-in cycle in the 10gal. Plus as you're moving the frogs I also presumed they would be going into fresh conditioner tap water...

 

[OldMan47]

Any live animal produces organic waste in one form or another. All organic waste eventually will decompose and release some ammonia. What that means is that frogs, invertebrates like snails or fish will produce ammonia waste one way or another. Things with gills also release ammonia directly into the water from their gills. The short answer is that yes the frog tank will need to cycle.
Moss balls, as with any plant, will help remove some nitrogen from the water but anything short of vigorous growth of large amounts of plants will not be enough to control your ammonia levels. That will still require that you establish a cycled filter.
The easiest way to remove lots of water in a hurry is with a gravel vacuum. It is essentially a siphon with a larger tube attached to one end. I draw down two 4 gallon waste buckets of water from a 10 gallon when I am having trouble with the water chemistry in one of my tanks. That leaves the fish almost dry on the gravel surface. I just leave my small fish enough water to prevent them tipping over on their sides because the level is so low. I then refill with temperature matched and dechlorinated water. The end result, right after each water change, is that the fish look much happier for a while until the water chemistry starts to become poisonous again. I call this a 90% water change but it is really all the water I dare remove.

 

[Sephroth57]

well i did about an 80% water change and im going to buy a test kit today. also my 2nd ghostfish is now showing the same signs as the first one and is dying. I guess its just cause the water is not good? but the other fish all seem to be fine. his tail is all ragged and barely there anymore, and his tail and part of his body are turning white and not see through.. i can go bring these back to petsmart, should i even get another 2 ghostfish? i was thinking about getting 2 more cory catfish instead since they seem to be doing well. also i took the guppies out of the tank and put them in a container for now and im taking them back to the store. they were terrorizing all the other fish chasing them around bullying them and it was probably stressing them all out. after i took them out the tank is much more peaceful.

 

[Assaye]

well i did about an 80% water change and im going to buy a test kit today. also my 2nd ghostfish is now showing the same signs as the first one and is dying. I guess its just cause the water is not good? but the other fish all seem to be fine. his tail is all ragged and barely there anymore, and his tail and part of his body are turning white and not see through.. i can go bring these back to petsmart, should i even get another 2 ghostfish? i was thinking about getting 2 more cory catfish instead since they seem to be doing well. also i took the guppies out of the tank and put them in a container for now and im taking them back to the store. they were terrorizing all the other fish chasing them around bullying them and it was probably stressing them all out. after i took them out the tank is much more peaceful.

Do not add any new fish to the tank. If fish die, do not replace them yet. Ghost catfish need a 3 foot long tank - that's about 25 gallons or more. In your little 10 gallon they won't be able to grow properly. If they die, do not buy more and I would return any healthy ones to the shop (assuming you can find a shop that doesn't euthanize healthy returned fish). Same goes for the mollies - smaller mollies (i.e. standard ones) need at least 17-20 US gallons and sailfin mollies need 25-30 US gallons. If they get sick don't replace them and I would also return healthy ones to the shop.

Don't get more corys until your tank is cycled. This means you need to wait until you have had zero ammonia and nitrite for at least a week. As Curiosity said, most species of cory get too large for a 10 gallon and should be kept in 15-20 gallons minimum. The exceptions are panda corys, pygmy corys and other dwarf species.

The guppies are the only fish you have there that are long term suitable for the tank. If you are going to return fish, either return all the fish and do a fishless cycle OR return the ones that are not guppies and keep the guppies. It doesn't make any sense to return the small fish and keep the ones that will outgrow the tank.

If the ghost cats are turning white and their fins are fraying, I suspect either a fungus or columnaris. However, there is no point treating the fish at this stage as the bad water conditions and the stress will not let them recover.

For now, keep doing 80% water changes and focus on getting your tank cycled.

 

[Curiosity101]

I agree with Assaye, and if you're returning fish then return them for store credit for use at a later date. Explain that you've just been given fish each time you went and no one told you about cycling or anything. They just kept giving you fish. Tell them you do want more fish, just not yet.

Please adhere to the advice both myself and assaye gave with regards to tank size for your current inhabitants unless you plan on upgrading. I do agree with him that it seems silly to replace unsuitable fish with other usuitable fish for that size tank. But it's great to see you picked up on giving the corys a group cause they will almost definitely be happier long term as a group.

 

[Sephroth57]

so ive done 2 80% water changes so far. i have a PH and amonia detector that sticks on the inside of the tank. the PH is showing 8.0+ , the amonia is showing under .02 it seems i should have just got PH test strips so i could give a more accurate reading, the leave in detector i have just changes color and matches to a little wheel so its hard to tell exactly the number, but it is at the highest it can read at so this is probably not good. besides doing large water changes daily is there anything else i can do?

so here is the tank setup after the changes

10 gallon -

3x Molly
3x Cory catfish
1x gold mystery snail

2 gallon -
2 african dwarf frogs

 

[Curiosity101]

Unless you opted for a fishless cycle by returning all fish then yes, the only thing you can do is the large daily water changes and getting a proper test kit for ammonia and nitrite.
Test strips are rubbish, and the ph/ammonia stick ons aren't meant to be super accurate but it's better than nothing for now.

 

[OldMan47]

If you actually want decent accuracy from your ammonia testing you will need a liquid type test kit, the ones with the little test tubes in them. You will also want to be able to test for nitrites. An easily available test kit, at least in the US, is the API master freshwater kit. It does both high and low range pH along with ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. All but the nitrate test can be quite valuable while cycling a new tank. The nitrate is useful for guiding you on how much water to change each week after the cycle is finished but will never show anything during a fish-in cycle. While you are doing a fish-in cycle, you will be changing water so often to control ammonia and nitrites that nitrates will not have a chance to build up above tap water levels.

 

[Sephroth57]

heres my stats from some cheap test strips i picked up

nitrite & nitrates - 0

total hardness - 75 (soft)

total alkalinity - 300 (high)

PH - 8.4