New Tank queries

[cheekeyarab]

Hi, I am a complete newcomer to the world of tropical fish and need some advice. I bought a 70litre tank for my 4 year old who is just obsessed with fish. We have set it up and my son spent hours helping clean all the gravel, plants etc. He has been very patient for a week but I think he is staring to despair of ever having fish. We are going to the aquatic centre to have our water tested tomorrow and wanted to get him some fish then. I was hoping to get some danios at a later date as I understand they are not recommended for new tanks.
Would I be able to mix a shoal, i.e half zebra, half pearl danios. If not I would just get pearls but would I also be able to get any of the following:
Neon Tetras
Platies
Guppies
Dalmation mollies.

My local aquatic centre advised against keeping dalmation mollies but I can't remember why, any ideas?

We also want to keep our eyes peeled for any Zebra Catfish that might become available in our area, would that work with any of the above fish?
We are not bothered about which fish we get but in an ideal world I would have eight neon tetras, six danios and 2 or 3 slightly bigger fish. Would this be too many for a 70litre tank? (bearing in mind I hope to add a zebra catfish if we ever find one we can afford!)

Sorry, I seem to have waffled on a bit so I will cut to the chase. Which fish should I introduce tomorrow? Feel free to suggest fish I haven't mentioned, although I do not want any barbs.

One last question. The local centre said they would recommend a species only tank (or something like that) for Siamese Fighting Fish as even placid fish would be too tempted by them. Is there any combination that would work with this fish?

Thank you, I look forward to receiving your advice and apologise for my ignorance in this subject.

 

[BettaMomma]

Well....
First you should get familiar with tank cycling.
Many people decide to do this with a couple of danios. You'll have people that will tell you to try to cycle without fish, but for a new beginner that would be difficult. You will need to pick up testing kits (for ammonia, and another one for things like nitrites and nitrates) so you can see when you need to do water changes.

Someone at the fish store should be able to help you out with understanding all of that.

As far as the neons, I have been told that neons do not do well in tanks unless they've been established for a good 6 months or more, so I'd avoid them.

Just make sure you understand the concept of tank cycling, and the rest will fall into place after that. and DON'T go overboard with fish right away. Get the danios until the tank has cycled, then you can start adding a few more fish. And the 1 inch of fish for 1 gallon of water isn't always true - that's for ADULT fish, and that's also for fish that don't produce a lot of waste.

Good luck to you!

 

[pica_nuttalli]

ok, a 70litre is about a 20US, right? so that means you can comfortably have about 20 inches of adult fish. danios are typically only recommended for 30 gallons, but that's mainly because they like a lot of swimming space. can you give the specific dimensions of your tank?

since these are going to be pets for your baby, you'll want to get nice and hardy fish that aren't readily distiguishable. danios would be great for this and they aren't picky on who they hang out with. six danios is also the minimum number to have a successful school, so you're right on target with that. presuming your tank has lots of lateral swimming space, i'd go on ahead and get 2 danios now. wait 3 weeks to get the next 2, then wait another 3 weeks to get the final pair.

six standard danios will become 12 inches of fish, so you still have about 8 inches to play with. if you really want neons, you could get 8 of them once you've had the tank running for several months. i'd get all of them at once so as to minimize the possibility of introducing neon tetra disease at a later time. odds are good that you'll still lose two or three, however, so you might want to overbuy.

personally, i wouldn't try keeping neons in a small tank nor would i purchase them for a small child. they're just so delicate and not very personable -- a very ornamental fish. might i recommend cory catfish instead? they're very interesting little fish and only get between 2-3 inches. also, since they're bottom-dwellers, they would not interfere with the danios swimming space (which would be a priority in a smaller tank). there are many varieties available and most are quite hardy (a few exceptions such as pandas exist). cory cats are also schooling fish and should be kept in groups of 3 or more.

 

[rdd1952]

I would definitely invest in a master test kit so you can check your own water. It is going to be extremely difficult to keep your water parameters in check during cycling unless you can check your water daily. You can get a Master Test Kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (tests ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and high pH) for around $25 at Petsmart. You can also get them online at PS for about $15 plus shipping. PS will also honor their online prices in the store. Just print out the page showing the price from petsmart.com and take it with you. What ever brand of kit you get, make sure it is a liquid test kit and not strips. Strips are easy but terribly inaccurate. Also try to avoid using any chemicals (other than possibly fertilizer if you have live plants) at all cost. They only mask a problem and don't really solve it. You listed your tank size in liters so I guess your not from the US. I'm not sure what kind of test kits are available outside the US.

As for fish, I have never had mollies but I believe they prefer brackish water so that is probably why the LFS guy told you they wouldn't work. Here is a link to some fish profiles. Check them out and see what you like and what is and isn't compatible.

http/www.liveaquaria.com/product/categ.cfm?pCatId=830

A school of 6 tetras and 6 corys would work fine. I say 6 of each as most community fish are schooling fish and prefer groups of at least 3 but do much better in groups or 6 or more. We have some Red-eye tetras who are very active and playful. Pristellas (X-Ray Tetras) and Serpaes are also very pretty and almost all tetras are hardy. The corys will keep the bottom of the tank cleaned of excess food and are also veryplayful, especialy when the lights are off. They do need some cover such as large leaf plants or a cave to give them some shade while the lights are on.

Fishless cycling is the simplest way to go but it can take a while. It's hard to be patient when the tank is sitting there and there aren't any fish in it. I have done it before and it seems to take for ever. Our Red-eye and Serpae tetras made it though our cycling with fish without any trouble so you could use them. If you do cycle with fish, don't add more than 3 or 4 at a time to a 20 gallon tank. Any more than that and you will have a major problem with ammonia and nitrite.

Lastly, Siamese Fighting Fish or Bettas as we know them sometimes work well in community tanks and sometimes they don't. If you do choose to try a betta in your tank, make sure you research his tankmates very well. Any fish with large fins or tails such as guppies, angel fish or other bettas most likely will not work as the betta will see them as a threat and he will kill them. Also beware of some of the fish that are fin nippers such as bucktooth and serpae tetras. They will nip at the bettas fins and tear them up or at the least, stress the betta out which tends to lead to diseases.
If you do decide to get a betta and put it in a seperate tank, make sure it is at least 1 gallon and preferable 2.5 or more.

Sorry this is so long. Good luck and welcome to the addiction. If your like most of us, you'll have multi-tank syndrome before you know it.

 

[daza]

as everyone else has also said, you need to learn about cycling the tank first to avoid new tank syndrome. Have you read the pinned topics at the top of the beginners section? A fishless cycle is always best IMO, but will involve finding an ammonia source and your son continuing to look at an empty tank for a few weeks. Cycling with the danios (or other fish) will involve more work, such as partial water changes each day but there is advise you can follow on the forums here.

I was going to say that explaining about cycling to your child would be a great science lesson. but I guess 4 years old it probably too young for that really?

Anyway...I also have a 70litre (a Juwel Rekord 70). 70 litres is slightly less than 20gal. see my sig.

I have 6 zebra danios, 3 white cloud mountain minnows and a rubberlip pleco. I should (and did - as they are also a schooling fish) have 6 white clouds too but I lost a couple and haven't replaced them yet.

I wouldn't go with any more fish than the 6 danios plus up to 6 neon tetra sized fish and a small pleco or maybe some small corries.

If you wanted a couple of slightly larger fish (but I can't think which ones to suggest) then I would get them instead of one of the schools (i.e. instead of the danios or the tetras).

The danios should be the first ones you add if you go for them because they have a reputation for being hardy. You can mix leapard danios and zebra danios to make a school so I believe, but I don't know anything about pearls myself.

The number of fish you keep also depends on the filter you have, so I'm assuming it is okay. Also beware than plecos tend to poo alot so you might need to do small partial water changes for a couple of days after adding one (but this won't be for a while yet anyway because you have to get the tank cycled first).

Hope that helps Good luck with it.

 

[cheekeyarab]

Thank you everyone for your replies, they have made me realise that a puppy might have been easier!
Anyway, the water test went well and I picked up my own testing kits at the same time.
Also went a bit silly on the fish front so now have guppies! Also Black Widow Tetras, I have never heard of them before but was assured they would do well in a new tank. Having read more of the info in the forum I am starting to wonder if my local centre is quite as reputable as I thought! I hope my fish do okay as I think they are so lovely and I don't want to lose any or for them to be miserable.
The black widows are very funny, the two small ones hid at first and the bigger ones exploreed the tank. They then went back into the plants and reappeared with the two little ones! Is tbis coincidence or do fish really look out for each other like that?
So far they look really happy and healthy but I am concerned for them as I realise I should have waited. Please help me by telling me how to best look after them during this initial period.
No lectures please! I promise I am impatient by nature and will never change!
Oh, I am in Scotland by the way so that is why I work in litres but I also have a juwel rekord 70.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

*pat, pat* i bet they didn't say a word about cycling, did they?

so, how many guppies (mles/females) and how many black widows? these can be good choices too. i'm actually rather glad to hear you skipped over the danios; your tank would have been a bit small for them.

you've completely overloaded the biological capacity of your tank. either (1) return all but 2~3 fish or (2) start doing 10% daily water changes. since you want the easy route, i suggest option #1. your fish should still be guaranteed if its a chain store and a local shop will probably understand that you just want what's best for the fish.

did they sell you an "instant cycling" product? you probably got ripped off if you did. the nitrogen cycle is maintained by oxygen-using bacteria that are difficult to bottle and store. unless an instant cycling product has been refrigerated and has an expiration date printe on it, its probably worthless.

--EDIT--
the behavior you've seen in your widows is part of them being a schooling fish. schooling fish rely on each other for protection and safety; they also wil not thrive on their own. you will probably really enjoy owning a school of fish, seeing how even simple fish can care for and look out for each other is one of the greatest aspects of this hobby.

 

[cheekeyarab]

Have four male guppies and four tetras. Will do regular water changes but tank seems big for the liittle fish. I was assured that they wouldn't grow much more and that they would have plenty of space. Guppies seem to like the top whilst tetras stay about half way down just above some of the shorter plants. I guess the tank seems empty 'cause the tetras diasppear regularly.
When you say that I have overloaded capacity does that mean that this is dangerous to fish or that I will have tp put a lot of time into them? If it is the latter then I am perfectly happy to do what it takes to keep them healthy.

No, instant cycling product was never mentioned, although neither was cycling in any form!

 

[pica_nuttalli]

ok, so its not as bad as it might be... yay! :yes:

by "overload" i mean that your tank cannot possibly have enough bacteria yet to process the waste given off by your fish. even with just the 8 fish, this is still true. try feeding a small amount every other day to keep down the ammonia levels. change out about 10% of the water every day. you only need to gravel vacuum once a week; just removing water is good enough for the daily changes.

your stocking level is just fine for an established tank, but you're a month or two away from that. until you have 0 ammonia and nitrIte readings in your water, your fish will be in danger. unless it'd be convenient to visit your LFS every week to test your water, you should invest in your own water test kit. you'll want a kit that at least tests for ammonia, nitrIte, nitrAte, pH, gH, kH.

i'm glad to hear you only have male guppies; that solves an issue right there. once your tank levels have settled, you'll want to grab up 2~3 more widows for your school. at that point, your tank will be completely full.

once you get into a routine, all these complex-sounding activities become very quick and easy. don't worry; you'll get there!

also, don't listen if they try to sell you random chemicals. the only chemicals you really need are dechlorinator, test supplies, a thing of aquarium salt, and an all-purpose anti-bacterial med. "instant cycling", "ammonia-locking", and "pH balancing" chemicals are all rip-offs and potentially dangerous to your fish.

 

[cheekeyarab]

Hmm, thanx, I think. Starting to feel intinidated by these tiny fish! I got one of those kits you don't recommend where you just have one strip to do everything. Except it doesn't test ammonia levels so will have to go and get a kit for that.

So, after I have starved them, sorry fed them sparingly, What alternatives to flaked food should I offer and how often?

Also, when I do the daily 10% change do I add the dechlorinator every time or just once a week.

Thank you for your feedback thus far, let's hope I can salvage my first mistake (of many I assure you!) Seriously though, these fish have to be okay, my boy knows how many there are and what they look like. My life is over if we lose any!

 

[gale]

You'll want to add dechlorinator every time to the new water before you add it to your tank.

Don't feel bad about starving, *ahem* feeding sparingly. I only feed my fish a small amount every other day and occasionally skip an extra day and rest assured, they are fat and happy. As for alternatives, you can get some frozen bloodworm or brine shrimp to feed once a week or so-just thaw about a pea size chunk in some tank water, then put it in there. They'll gobble it up.

I don't know what to tell you about any possible losses. My youngest is 5 yrs old and doesn't have a problem with fish dying but that is probably not true of all kids.