New Tank Gone Wrong!?

[Skae]

Hello everyone, this is a long one but I'd appreciate any feedback you can give, thank you!
 
I've had my tank for over 2 months now, bought it from a local pet store, it''s 64 Litre, I have a tropical set up. 
I started out with a couple of mollies and corys after the initial set up, a few days went by and I added a couple more, next week, couple more.. at the most I held 2 mollies, 4 corys and a plec (one mollie had babys.. needless to say they didnt last as we werent going to breed at this time and were not made aware of the sex!) 
Any who, we followed all the instructions the shop gave us (Pets at Home) and had bought all the ornamets/ plants from the same store, as well as the food they were used to. 
 
We have all the required treatments & more! from filter boost to tap safe and even ammonia remover.
After having the tank for three or so weeks we woke to find the plec belly up, in case we may have misjudged the amount of food we had given, we caught him in our net and lay him at the surface for a little bit, but his eyes went and colour was fading and it went stiff, so we removed.  
 
We were shocked so marched back to the pet store, we bought some test kits to make sure everything in our water was ok.
It was. (days after we had introduced a couple fish to the tank, guramis along with another mollie)
 
A couple days went by and the mollies went, when we went to the store they said we had an ammonia spike and to do a large water change and use the remover..
When we returned home one of our Honey Guramis had gone!  We were frustrated, we kept on top of the water changes (recommended 20% daily until ammonia dropped significantly) and only fed every other day. 
 
Slowly but surely the fish started to go again, when we went to the pet shop to ask about what we're doing wrong the kind chap suggested a new filter saying perhaps the one they're selling with the tank isn't good enough.. (lovely) 
Luckily he gave it us for free which is a relief as the amount of money we had already spent was unreal..! 
 
We introduced the new filter whilst still running the old one for a few days and then took it out. 
 
We tested our water and the ammonia was still high, slowly it was decreasing.. 
Next we wake to find a bronze cory dead and the following day the two peppered corys.
We now have one honey guarmi and one bronze cory left, and unfortunately the cory now has white spot!!
 
When we tested our water everything was good except the ammonia which wasnt as high as it had been and has come down a lot but we haven;t rid it yet.. 
 
We're at a loss as of what to do, we have taken great care of our tank and I understand we should have problems as it's new, but should we really be getting this many problems?  What can I do?? 
 
I will upload a pic of my tank shortly,   thank you for reading and hope you can help x

 

[Akasha72]

hello and 

 .... as soon as I read pets@home I gave an inward groan. I knew what the rest of your post was going say before I even read it. Anyhow ... we're here to set you on the right track. Firstly forget anything you've been told at p@h ... occasionally we come across a good store with good staff that give good advice but it is only a small amount of the time. It's sad but true.
 
Next we're gonna need some figures. You mention that you bought some kits and that ammonia read as high. To us that can mean anything so please can we have the following figures
 
pH
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Temperature of tank
 
Those are just the basics but it would also be good to know if you know the hardness of your source water. Do you know if it's soft or hard? I ask this purely because Mollies will only thrive in hard water where-as corydoras and plecs need soft water. I doubt at this stage that is was this that killed the fish (the ammonia will be the culprit) but it's always good to know those figures. If your unsure you could try looking to see if your water company have a website and if that info is shared there.
 
In the meantime I'll point you here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/forum/291-cycle-your-tank/  for you to have a read up on cycling. There will be many answers to your questions in that section
 
Best Wishes
Akasha

 

[Skae]

Hello and thanks for the response!
 
I can't remember exactly what my test kit said but it does test nitrite nitrate and ph and according to the table they're all absolutely fine.. 
I was testing my water for ammonia with p@h as i didn't want to buy one of their expensive kits with little amount of testing strips inside, luckily the pet shop is less than 10 minutes walk away and they test for free. 
The ammonia was clearly my problem to begin with and Im aware that can affect my fish for weeks after and even that they may never be 100% healthy afterwards? 
Lets just say the test should slowly turn green after 30 seconds if there is ammonia present, it went green in about 5 seconds! 
 
Two days ago it was looking a lot better but it's still present. 
 
My temperate is always at 26, i even make sure that the water in my changes are exactly 26 too to make sure theres no fluctuation. 
 
I have been doing a 15l water change daily for about two weeks now which has helped reduce the ammonia, but im down to two fish and one of them hasn't moved all day!  
 
I bought a gravel pump today in hopes that will help remove more poop / left over food from the bottom .
 
 
I also looked up my water type (something ive actually never heard of before and certainly nothing the pet place advised me on........ !)
Heres my results....


CaCO3 mg/l Water Hardness


Ca mg/l


Degrees Clarke


Degrees French


Degrees German




27


11


1.89


2.70


1.51


 
I hope this makes more sense to you than it has to me!
 
Thank you for your time! x 

 

[Akasha72]

I can't convert the water hardness table .. It's just not something I can understand but we do have members that can convert it so I'll leave that to them.
 
In terms of the ammonia - you really do need a test kit. I would look to get a liquid drop test (the one's p@h) use. The API masterkit is the one most often available. They look expensive but it will last you ages.
 
In terms of getting this ammonia under control - you need to do water changes every day and 15% is doing nothing to bring it down. Without knowing how high the ammonia is it's difficult to calculate but I would aim to change 50% of the water volume every day. Without your own test kit it's impossible to know what is going on but in rare cases (very very rare in the uk) there can be ammonia in the tap water and if you had a test kit I would be recommending testing the tank for ammonia and the tap water too just in case.
 
If money is an issue and the full kit is too expensive just look to get a kit for ammonia and nitrite - those are the two that will kill your fish. As the tank cycles bacteria for ammonia grows first then the bacteria for nitrite comes next. When ammonia starts to fall, nitrite will spike next and this will kill fish too.
 
With the gravel vac ... just at the moment just hover it over the substrate - don't go digging it in too much as bacteria is developing in the substrate aswell as this help you out right now. In terms of left over food ... if there's left over food you are feeding too much so it's a good idea to cut that down  

 

[Essjay]

There are two units used in fishkeeping, ppm and dH (or degrees). From your table, CaCO3 mg/l is the same as ppm (27) and German degrees are the same as dH (1.51). You have very soft water.
 
So:
very soft
1.51 dH
27 ppm
 
are the figures you need to know.

 

[Skae]

I read up on the water last night, on welsh water (with my post code) it suggests I have moderately soft water. 
 
I've also had the water tested and it contains no ammonia, we generally have really good water up here, and I treat the amount of water accordingly with my tap safe. 
 
I'll probably pick up a test kit from amazon if anyone has any recommendations, I wouldn't say I'm tight on cash but I have spent a lot of money on this tank so far and it's sad to see all these fish dying I feel I'm just wasting my money and I'm that I'm useless at this thing.
 
I can change more water that's not a problem. 
I'm currently treating the white spot too 
 
I have reduced what I'm feeding them, I feed every other day and the bottom feeder is getting half a wafer and the gourami is getting a slight pinch of his flakes, which he hoovers up within 1 min. 
I think my judgement was a little off with all the fish I had. 
 
I'm also really worried about my cory, I found him nudged against an ornament yesterday morning, thinking he was dead I reached in with the net and when I nudged him he shot off, but now he's been sat in one space by a plant and it seems he's been there since last night, probably a solid 24hrs, he's still breathing though but quite worried.. !!
 
Really appreciate your feedback guys, thank you

 

[Skae]

 

[Akasha72]

hi again. Firstly your not useless at this. Keeping fish can be more complicated than it at first seems. People get a tank and think they can just fill it up, chuck in some fish and sit back and enjoy. What they don't realise, and in your case, not told, is that fish need just as much care as you would give to a kitten or a puppy. 
 
Fish create ammonia as they breath and via their excretions too. With an established filter this ammonia is taken in, bacteria 'eats' it and converts it to Nitrite and another set of bacteria 'eats' the Nitrite and convert that to Nitrate and then natural plants use the Nitrate as food .... this how the cycle works. With a brand new filter and brand new sponges/bio-balls etc there is no bacteria to 'eat' the nasty stuff and so it builds. As ammonia and Nitrite build the fish become sick - it's basicly the same as you sitting in a bath of diluted acid. That would be the equivilent to me. The only way to deal with it is to keep on diluting the nasty stuff with clean water.
 
In terms of the cory .. it will be stressed. Cories are a shoaling species. They live in huge groups in the wild. They are not designed to be kept alone and so he'll be feeling stressed out. What he really needs is some friends and he needs friends of the same kind ... even if you were to get one or two more for now. Of course this means that you add more ammonia and it puts the pressure on you to do more water changes. The alternative is that you leave things as they are and the poor little one becomes more stressed and may die. It's a difficult balance and the choice has to be yours. 
 
I'm also slightly concerned about your substrate and this little cory. Cories ideally need to be kept on sand. This is because rough gravel can cause them to lose their barbels (whiskers). Please can you pop your hand in the tank, pick up some of your substrate and rub it between your fingers. If there are any sharp or rough edges then you'll need to consider changing it. 

 

[Skae]

Good morning!
 
I'm not bothered about the water changes, I just want a happy healthy tank. 
 
I read up somewhere about corys wanting sand, again my lovely fish store didn't tell me this, I had to do my own research, this gravel is a little rough, I could perhaps do half & half or get a softer, finer gravel maybe? 
 
-
 
Now, the only thing I don't have in this cycle is living plants, I did have moss balls but I've had to get rid of them.. ;/ all my plants are artificial.
-
Also the thing with the cory,, I can't get any more fish from p@h because they simply won't allow me until that ammonia is gone.      
But we lost 3 corys very fast so he is probably very lonely..
 
 
I'm going to take a water sample to p@h today after I've done my big water change  and hope that this ammonia has dropped significantly. 

 

[Akasha72]

if it were me I would run some tank water into a bucket and add the two fish - cover the bucket with some towels to keep it warm and reduce stress then set to work removing the substrate completely.
 
Before you do this though pop to Argos and buy a bag of children's play sand - it's around £3 per bag. You shouldn't need more than one bag. Add the sand to some buckets and sit it under a running tap to run off the surface dirt (it'll be dirtier than you think) Once the thick of the scum has run off get your hands in and start moving the sand around, pouring off any dirt/scum that comes to the surface. Keep going until the water runs clear. Repeat with all the sand until you've got it all clean.
 
Once it's clean you can start adding it to your tank. If you pre-wash the sand and have it ready before moving the fish out the whole process shouldn't take you more than a couple of hours. The tank may be a bit cloudy for a couple of days but the fish should be fine. The cleaner you can get the sand when you wash it the better as this will help with any cloudiness.
 
I would then start looking at easy to keep natural plants. There's two reasons I'm suggesting this. One, plants will take up some on the Ammonia and Two, once the tank is cycling they'll use up some of the Nitrates as food. The best way to think about a fish tank is as a little eco-system. If you treat it as a natural eco-system and not as something un-natural and synthetic it'll run so much better in the long term.
 
Doing all this now will benefit you in the long term. The little cory can't live on sharp substrate long term and to me, now is the time to rectify that before you have more fish to catch.
 
I hope that helps you

 

[Skae]

thanks akasha, 
 
ill look in to that on my next day off, today i got a friend to drive me down to somewhere that wasn't p@h, when i mentioned p@h he rolled his eyes ;(! how are they such a big company and everyone seems to have bad news about them! grr..
 
any who, I was talking to the guy at this place and he runs 6 of his own tanks and seems to know his stuff, I had a good chat with him and said I wanted a couple of friends for my cory and gourami, he asked the size of my tank and how many fish i had in it and suggested I added 5 fish not 2/3, so some money later and a short journey out of town and back I have 5 lovely new fish in the tank. 
 
So, my cory had a friend..! i just got the one for now and thought i could add a couple more in the next week, however, my other cory died this evening!!!!!!!!!!!!!  i am so annoyed, i knew he was probably sick due to the previously high ammonia and the white spot which he was being treated for and the fact the tank was empty, he hadn't moved for three days, only when i brushed the net beside him would he move to another spot.. i don't think he was eating either, i think the gourami was waiting for me to leave the room after feeding and helping himself to seconds ! 
 
So, my gourami now has a female companion, which he seems really happy about and will not leave her side which is adorable! 
but the cory is now lonely uhh 
 
I did stay clear of the ever reproducing mollies though. (lol) 
 
I had phoned up this place which was about an hours drive away to make sure they were open and still sold tropical fish (because the last 3 places i went to didnt have them anymore or were closed down!) and they woman said yes to both, then in the background came a voice saying that he had some in quarantine and to come on the weekend! So, I opted for somewhere more well known to me...   
 
Now, I can pick up a plant from p@h, surely they will be ok???  because this other place is quite far away  
 
All going well I will hopefully go back there in a weeks time to stock some more fish !!! 
 
Also, in regards to popping some sand in, would you recommend a half and half ?  - I also have about a 14 lite bucket i use for my water changes, would this be ideal to hold the 6 fish I have whilst I sort out the tank?  
 
Thank you, I really appreciate your replies x  

 

[Akasha72]

in terms of sand - we get asked a lot if you can 'cap off' the gravel with a layer of sand - I'm presuming this is what you are meaning - and the answer is no. Over time the sand falls through the gravel and within a month or two you end up with a layer of sand on the bottom and the gravel back on the top! If you want the best for cories then they really do need sand. I have loads of cories, all on sand, and they all bury their faces in it - sometimes up to the gills. This is their natural behaviour. They also naturally sift sand through their gills for food. They can't behave naturally on gravel and on rough gravel they will lose their whiskers perminantly and then they can end up with sores on their underside too. It's a bit like us stood in our bare feet on sharp pebbles .. it hurts and will eventually cut
 
With p@h ... when you get the plant run some warm water into a bucket and add some ordinary table salt. Pop the plant into the warm salty water and leave it there for a good 20 minutes. Then you can give it a really good rinse under running water and then add it to the tank.
The salt water should kill off any snails or snail eggs and help with anything else it could be bringing in. 
 
A 14 litre bucket is fine to hold 6 fish while you change things over

 

[Skae]

Hello again! 
With the sand I meant like the left side of my tank to be sand and the right side with gravel, does sand/ gravel bother the other fish? or is it just really for the bottom feeders? 
 
im on a half day at work tomorrow and my partner is back so i can get hold of the sand & plant and get it sorted, i wont be stressing out the new fish too much will i? if i move them in to a bucket for a bit and then back in to the tank after?  
 
also, as one of the fish had white spot, would i be best to keep treating the tank as well as my daily water changes to get rid of it? it was the cory that had it and well he died so? i guess the disease is still present in the tank? ive treated it for 3 days so far.
 
 
Thanks for your help x

 

[Akasha72]

well changing all the substrate will help with the whitespot too because the cysts can live on in the substrate so by whipping it out you remove the chance of that. 
 
The problem I have with only changing 50/50 is that the cories won't just stay on the side with sand. Cories bumble about all over the tank - it's their natural behaviour. If you keep one side with gravel and one side with sand the cories will still be coming into contact with gravel that can and will harm them. Sand only matters for bottom dwellers. The top dwellers don't care what the substrate is
 
Moving the fish will stress them but keeping them in the tank while you change the substrate will be more stressful for them than removing them. I would keep the bucket with the fish in covered with a towel. If they are kept in the dark and kept somewhere quiet they will soon calm down. Covering the bucket will also help reduce the chance of any fish taking a leap for freedom - and it does happen. It happened to me when I had to catch all my fish to drain my tank to move it for a new carpet fitted. My favourite fish jumped out of the temporary tank whilst I was catching some more and it was hours before I found her on the floor. She was dead and drying up so completely done for.