New symptoms poorly molly:(

[Elena82x]

Hello
I’ve mentioned before that I have a black molly who has been flashing on the substrate a lot. This has been going on for a couple of months and I have treated for ich and also flukes and worms, though am now at the point where I’m very conscious of adding any more incorrect meds.
The water conditions are very good and tank maintenance good (ammonia nitrite zero and nitrate kept around 5-10, twice weekly water changes) but I’ve only been in the hobby several months and think by not quarantining new arrivals gradually added more and more problems. I lost 4 guppies in recent weeks though no obvious outward symptoms. (Different to this molly who has flashed for weeks). He is eating and still swimming but spending more and more time sat on the bottom and flashes lots too still. Today he has spent nearly the whole day sat on the bottom near the air stones. I feel like he looks awkward swimming and am wondering if this is clamped fins? I don’t know if he is just looks different swimming to the females as they are more rounded. However also today a few whiteish marks have appeared on him. They don’t seem like ich spots. There is a slight mark near the front of him above his eye and a larger mark at the back of his fin, slightly stringy or cottony I suppose though I’m not sure it’s the cotton wool disease I’ve read about. I can’t get a decent picture as he wriggles and my camera loses focus. I got a video of him swimming but it won’t upload. (Edit think I have added it now in a reply comment) I’ll keep trying to get a better photo. I’m going to put him in a salt bath while I do a water change (I tried low dose salt in the tank several weeks ago but have cories so removed it after a fortnight). Please help

 

[Elena82x]

 

[Byron]

It is always a good idea to post numbers for both water parameters (GH, pH, temperature, sometimes KH too), and water conditions (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) assuming you can test for these. Depending upon the numbers, this can tell us something that may be helpful.

 

[Elena82x]

It is always a good idea to post numbers for both water parameters (GH, pH, temperature, sometimes KH too), and water conditions (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) assuming you can test for these. Depending upon the numbers, this can tell us something that may be helpful.

Hi, thank you for replying. Ammonia and nitrate and 0 and nitrate is getting towards 20 so I am in the middle of doing a 70% water change (I’ve had a mini cycle in the last week as a secondary filter in the tank stopped working so the main one has had to build up its work I think - I kept ammonia and nitrate at below 0.5 by doing a couple of extra water changes and added Prime). PH is 7.4. All I can find on hardness from the local water website is that it is mod-hard.
The marks on his fin are more like cobweb type stuck to it, it’s hard to tell if it is at all frayed or damaged, I thought it was at first then changed my mind. Still can’t get better photos though hopefully the video will show whether he has clamped fin or not.
There is a bit of white cobwebby algae at the moment. I don’t think it’s that stuck to him but I’m no expert…

 

[Byron]

Water parameters need to be pinned down I think, and @Essjay will likely be able to assist when she is online tomorrow. She's in the UK too and has a good understanding of water chemistry and area.

As for the nitrates, approaching 20 ppm is getting too high, especially for mollies. First question, what is the nitrate result for the tap water on its own? This will tell us if nitrates are coming in with water changes, or occurring solely within the tank's biological system. And second, what is the lowest number for nitrates, say after a water change? How often are water changes normally, and how much of the tank volume at each?

 

[Elena82x]

Water parameters need to be pinned down I think, and @Essjay will likely be able to assist when she is online tomorrow. She's in the UK too and has a good understanding of water chemistry and area.

As for the nitrates, approaching 20 ppm is getting too high, especially for mollies. First question, what is the nitrate result for the tap water on its own? This will tell us if nitrates are coming in with water changes, or occurring solely within the tank's biological system. And second, what is the lowest number for nitrates, say after a water change? How often are water changes normally, and how much of the tank volume at each?

The tap water tests at zero nitrates. I’ve been trying to keep the nitrates below 10 which has meant having to do about 40% water changes 2 sometimes 3 times a week so I’ve added some more plants recently to try and keep them lower naturally as it’s a lot keeping up with the amount of water changes (I’m a mum of 3 ) but I have been doing them nonetheless. There seems to have been a mini cycle this last week whilst the second filter came out (I’d left it in since moving from an old tank). So the nitrates have been higher this last week, the water changes have been reducing them from about 20 back to 10. I’m doing a 70% change at the moment and am planning to pop the molly in a salt bath for ten minutes at the end unless you think that’s not a good idea.

 

[speakerman3]

I wouldn't recommend doing anything sudden with the molly. He is stressed and could have saprolegnia or another issue--it is hard to tell from the video. Do you have a separate tank you could put him in and increase the temperature and salt content gradually? From what I saw, your other fish look healthy, so it is likely that he came to you with a problem. Does he eat?

 

[Elena82x]

I wouldn't recommend doing anything sudden with the molly. He is stressed and could have saprolegnia or another issue--it is hard to tell from the video. Do you have a separate tank you could put him in and increase the temperature and salt content gradually? From what I saw, your other fish look healthy, so it is likely that he came to you with a problem. Does he eat?

I don’t have a separate tank unfortunately. Yes he eats and chases the females. I will look into what saprolegnia could be thank you.

 

[Essjay]

All I can find on hardness from the local water website is that it is mod-hard.

Do they not give a number at all? I think the only one that doesn't is Welsh Water.

UK water companies define moderately hard as 8.4 - 11.2 dH and 150 - 200 ppm. Even the top of that range is a bit low for mollies and yours could be anywhere in range so likely lower than 11.2 dH/200 ppm.

 

[Elena82x]

Do they not give a number at all? I think the only one that doesn't is Welsh Water.

UK water companies define moderately hard as 8.4 - 11.2 dH and 150 - 200 ppm. Even the top of that range is a bit low for mollies and yours could be anywhere in range so likely lower than 11.2 dH/200 ppm.

Thank you for the info. I will try to find out more

 

[Elena82x]

I wouldn't recommend doing anything sudden with the molly. He is stressed and could have saprolegnia or another issue--it is hard to tell from the video. Do you have a separate tank you could put him in and increase the temperature and salt content gradually? From what I saw, your other fish look healthy, so it is likely that he came to you with a problem. Does he eat?

I have a better photo

I wouldn't recommend doing anything sudden with the molly. He is stressed and could have saprolegnia or another issue--it is hard to tell from the video. Do you have a separate tank you could put him in and increase the temperature and salt content gradually? From what I saw, your other fish look healthy, so it is likely that he came to you with a problem. Does he eat?

I have taken a better look at him today as he was raising his fin. It has definitely begun to rot away in its place there is a bit of the grey cobwebby stuff. His fin was fine a week or two ago. The flashing has been happening for several weeks. How do I treat this? Im doing regular water changes as the tank went through a mini cycle. Currently anmonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 5. I have some melafix I could use but not sure.

 

[Byron]

As a general practice, never "treat" an unknown problem with medications/additives. Fish disease/problems are difficult to diagnose, and symptom "x" may well be due to more than one possible issue. And, before any "treatment" is contemplated, we must know the parameters (and conditions being ammonia/nitrite/nitrate which we do have).

I still suspect the GH is too low, but without the number we are making assumptions. But all the "symptoms" certainly could be from the GH (or pH).

On the nitrates, one water change each week with 50-70% of the tank volume should be adequate. "Mini cycles" or anything to do with bacteria is not going to cause a rise in nitrates because this is at the end of the "cycling" aspect. A rise in ammonia or nitrite would be indicators of a nitrifying/cycling issue more than nitrates. Nitrates occur from too many fish, too large a fish for the tank's ability to handle, too much feeding, too few water changes, not cleaning the substrate (especially if no live plants are present, then the substrate needs a very good clean at each W/C), not keeping the filter clean. Live plants help by using ammonia/ammonium, which means less go through nitrification so there is less nitrite and then less nitrate.

 

[Elena82x]

As a general practice, never "treat" an unknown problem with medications/additives. Fish disease/problems are difficult to diagnose, and symptom "x" may well be due to more than one possible issue. And, before any "treatment" is contemplated, we must know the parameters (and conditions being ammonia/nitrite/nitrate which we do have).

I still suspect the GH is too low, but without the number we are making assumptions. But all the "symptoms" certainly could be from the GH (or pH).

On the nitrates, one water change each week with 50-70% of the tank volume should be adequate. "Mini cycles" or anything to do with bacteria is not going to cause a rise in nitrates because this is at the end of the "cycling" aspect. A rise in ammonia or nitrite would be indicators of a nitrifying/cycling issue more than nitrates. Nitrates occur from too many fish, too large a fish for the tank's ability to handle, too much feeding, too few water changes, not cleaning the substrate (especially if no live plants are present, then the substrate needs a very good clean at each W/C), not keeping the filter clean. Live plants help by using ammonia/ammonium, which means less go through nitrification so there is less nitrite and then less nitrate.

Thanks for all the advice. Perhaps the filter is too sludgy? I will do more regular swilling of the sponges in a bucket of tap water as I’ve been avoiding unsettling the growing bacteria. I suction the poop most days. I used to feed twice a day but reduced to once after learning on here that less is better. I have 3 guppies 4 mollies 13 bottom feeders and several fry in a 240l. I think I’m more or less at capacity from what I’ve read (I’m not keeping all the fry).
I’m looking into finding out more about the GH.
If it’s parameters my confusion is the other mollies seeming really well and happy. The little guy has been flashing for a couple of months and the noticeable fin issue the last few days (though in the last few weeks because of observing him closely due to the flashing I did wonder if his gill (pelvic?) fins looked slightly frayed. I’m guessing they were now I’ve seen this sudden decline in his dorsal fin.
I have been looking into columnaris but think that the others would have shown symptoms by now.

 

[Elena82x]

Here is a slightly better photo. NB! They are NOT white spots on him, that is flecks of algae on the glass. It is the fin that is the noticeable issue, normally a huge proud black fin
He was uncharacteristically having an aggressive minute with a female molly earlier too they were attacking each other, instigated by him I think. I suspect this must be down to his stress.

 

[Byron]

I am not going to guess as to the spots; my experience with "disease" is extremely limited (fortunately) and others are better able to assess. But the parameters play into any "problem" because each species of freshwater fish has evolved to function in what really is a very specific environment, which obviously includes water parameters. Individual fish can respond differently to adverse conditions. Mollies must have a GH of 12 dH or higher, and a basic pH in the high 7's or higher. When this is lacking, they struggle tocarry out basic functions, and usually wear themselves out. The stress from this causes other issues that normally they would be able to handle.

Flashing can occur from parameter issues, from parasites, from ammonia/nitrite/nitrate issues...and clamped fins, lethargy, resting on the substrate the same. Before we even consider adding some sort of medication, fixing the obvious problems like the parameters is best.