Never Ending Bout With Ich

[vb514]

Hi all,
 
Sorry if this is wordy, but I am at my wit's end...
 
I have been fighting what I believe to be the same ich problem for almost 2 months now.  I have a 46 gallon tank that was fully cycled and stocked with healthy fish until about 2 months ago.  It started after adding 2 fish to the aquarium from a fish store that I have since identified as an unhealthy place to purchase new fish.  I raised the temperature to about 82 and began treatment with Malachite Green (25% water changes before treating every day).  In my many years of keeping several tanks, I have had four or five ich outbreaks and have always managed to clear the tank efficiently using MG with no lasting effects or recurrences.
 
This time was different.  The ich ravaged my tank, killing 8 fish, with only my 4 Platys surviving (thank goodness for those hearty little guys).  I continued to medicate throughout the everything, stopping the treatment about a week after the fish no longer showed signs.  The tank seemed fine for about a week after that.  then I added 3 new fish and all the fish were showing signs of ich within 48 hours.  I did the entire thing over again, only to have the same results when I added fish again.
 
I then researched other methods and tried turning the temperature up higher.  I increased aeration and kicked the temp up to 86 degrees.  I now have a tank of only Platys and they seem to handle the temp just fine, no signs of stress, no pinched or damaged fins, still very active, eating well, etc.  The ich disappeared immediately.  I left the tank at the elevated temp for 18 days, at which point i was under the impression that the ich should be dead (as I have read it can not breed over 84 and and can not live over 85).  However, dropping the temperature even slightly causes the ich to come back immediately.  (Dropping it gradually, even at 1 degree per day, causes ich to reappear at about 82 degrees)
 
The newest development is I am now (within the last few days) experiencing an ammonia spike.  Not sure if I damaged with bacteria with the constant treatment (or if that's even a thing), but heavy daily water changes are all I can do to keep the ammonia down.  Otherwise it rapidly climbs over 1.0 PPM.  Obviously this presents its own problems.
 
I'm positive I am doing something wrong, but heck if i can figure it out.  Please help!  The frustration is killing my interest in my favorite hobby!  
 
Thank you!

 

[Baccus]

Sadly there are now hardier strains of Ich doing the rounds and it is possible that you have managed to introduce such a strain to your tank. The ammonia spikes I  think  could be caused from the medication process, especially if the filter media was not removed from the filter. Sadly medications dont discriminate between good bacteria and bad (or other mircobes for that matter), so if the filter was left intact you may have accidently killed off your good bacteria, thus causing the tank to need to be recycled.
When you raised the temperature did you also add any salts to the water? Platties will handle some salts and in some cases depending on where they where bred need it for good health. Salts (Aquarium salts never table salt) added with a higher temperature to combat Ich is a two fold attack on the Ich organism. The salts cause the fish to produce a thicker slime coat which in turn makes it harder for the organism to attach itself to the fish. The higher temp mean while kills the free swimming organisms prior to attaching to a fish since it is only while it is free swimming that it is suspectable to treatment.
It is possible that your unwitting Platties are the habourers of the Ich, since it can settle in the gills of fish and never actually show up on the fish as white spots, and the fish in turn shows some immunity to it. However the Ich continues its three stage life cycle of releasing more offspring to infect any fish that they can find. Some fish being carriers of the Ich could be why healthy looking new fish added to an existing tank are the first to suddenly develop the tell tale white spots and then get blamed for the outbreak rather then the existing tank fish.
I have never used the heat and salt method to kill/ cure white spot, largely because of the species of fish kept and the standard ambient temperatures my tanks tend to endure, but I have had good success using Multi-cure products even used at half dose for fish such as catfish, loaches, tetras and fry.

 

[StevenF]

I agree that one or more of you fish is probably a carrier and reinfecting the tank every time you clear it out.  You might want to try UV sterilizer.  That will kill any free floating ICK in the water before it has a chance of reinfecting the fish.  With a UV sterilizer you will stop new infections and then hopefully the immune system of the carrier fish will kill the last bit of ICK.  However it may take months for it to compleatly clear.  

 

[Byron]

I tend to stay out of disease issues due to lack of experience/knowledge on the subject, but ich is a bit different and as I went through a real nasty infection I may be able to offer some help.
 
First, given the fish are livebearers (anything else in this tank?) I would definitely only use salt and heat.  Even with my sensitive wild caught characins and loaches, I followed Neale Monks' suggestion on this and it worked as nothing else had.  In my case, he suggested 2 g aquarium salt per litre as a safe level [see below], added gradually (over 1-2 days).  With livebearers you should be OK with a bit higher salt level, but I can't say exactly.  Temperature was raised to 29C/84F, but it could go higher with livebearers.  Two weeks, then reduce heat to normal and water changes normally will remove the salt.  Add salt for the replacement water only for water changes during treatment.  Neale said this treatment is about the best for ich and velvet that can be very stubborn.
 
UV can work but only if all the water passes through the UV before returning to the tank, which is not feasible.  UV can only kill bacteria/protozoan in the water as it passes through the UV unit, so even one parasite hatching out and finding a host fish will continue the infection.
 
High temperature is said to kill ich, true, but it has to be very high, around 32C/90F, and Dr. Monks suggested that this might have issues for many fish, and it was usually safer to not go so high and use salt.
 
One level teaspoon contains approximately 6 grams of salt, so at 2 g/L, 1 level teaspoon would treat 3 litres.
 
Byron.

 

[vb514]

Thank you all.
 
I purchased aquarium salt today and have begun treatment.  I have a couple of questions related to the answers above.
 
Can anyone shed further light on one of my fish being "a carrier?"  The way that it is written above, it sounds as though fish can carry the disease without being affected by it.  That doesn't jibe with my understanding of ich.  Wouldn't the ich in the gils of the "carrier" fish still go though the 3 phase process that ich on other parts of the fish go through?  If it doesn't drop off, how would it spread?  I guess I need to understand where I am misunderstanding.  
 
Second, Byron's comment about the UV filter makes intuitive sense to me.  It doesn't seem like the tank could be cleared by that method alone.  However, if I have a UV filter that turns all my tank water over twice per hour (meeting the manufacturer's suggested flow requirements for killing parasites), it would seem that this would still be a very effective method of greatly reducing the ich during the free swimming phase, helping in the treatment and to prevent recurrences.  If cost was not a consideration, would it be worth me getting a UV filter?
 
Thanks all.

 

[StevenF]

 
 
Can anyone shed further light on one of my fish being "a carrier?"  The way that it is written above, it sounds as though fish can carry the disease without being affected by it. 

Yes that is the general meaning of carrier.  Why that happens isn't always clear or can be explained.  Some people are known to be carriers of tuberculosis.  However for this disease tuberculosis carrier cannot spread it.   Whooping Cough for some people is just a minor annoyance or hardly noticeable.  but for children or those with a week immune system it can be fatal.

 
 
However, if I have a UV filter that turns all my tank water over twice per hour (meeting the manufacturer's suggested flow requirements for killing parasites), it would seem that this would still be a very effective method of greatly reducing the ich during the free swimming phase

that is the general idea.  Kill it as quickly as possible when is in it's vulnerable free swimming phase.  At 77F ICK's life cycle is about 7 days.  At 43F ICK's life cycle is about 8 weeks.  That is a lot of time to infect another fish.  However if you can use a UV filter to limit the reinfection time to a couple of hours, ICK will die faster than it can reproduce. if ICK doesn't have enough time to infect a fish before it dies the disease should slowly die out.    In fact the idea with heat is similar.  With heat the idea it to shorten the life cycle so much that it becomes very difficult if not impossible for ICK to infect another fish. 

 

[Byron]

Can anyone shed further light on one of my fish being "a carrier?"  The way that it is written above, it sounds as though fish can carry the disease without being affected by it.  That doesn't jibe with my understanding of ich.  Wouldn't the ich in the gils of the "carrier" fish still go though the 3 phase process that ich on other parts of the fish go through?  If it doesn't drop off, how would it spread?  I guess I need to understand where I am misunderstanding.
 

 
I will begin with a citation from Bob Fenner that Neale Monks confirmed with me directly.
 
 Ich is almost always present in freshwater systems and is parasitic on most if not all freshwater fishes. All that it takes to become pathogenic (actively infectious, disease-causing) is a strong strain of ich (e.g. an import from a newly added specimen), a not-so healthy, poorly-resistant host and/or a poor environment for the fishes. Re the last: Note that all diseases are to degrees environmentally linked. If the fishes are initially in good health, put into a suitable, stable home, the chance of outbreak is small.
 
Ich first attacks fish in the gills.  This is why you may see a fish flash, once or a couple of times, but never see spots externally.  So this one trophont will feed and then drop off.  A healthy fish, or one that has become somewhat immune to the parasite, never becomes infected.
 
Raising the temperature speeds up the life cycle of the protozoan; at cooler temperatures it can take weeks, while only a few days in warm water, as Steven noted.
 
Personally I wouldn't bother with UV, they are very expensive, and not going to be thorough no matter what.  Picture a single tomont (cyst) that has dropped off a fish and is lying on the substrate.  It ruptures and up to 2000 free-swimming tomites/theronts swim to find a host.  A loach or cory is sitting a few inches away...just one of the 2000 tomites gets into the gills and the cycle will continue another generation.
 
Byron.