My Pepper! Update: He's Showing Improvement

[jollysue]

I have two peppered cories in a tank that has been giving me problems. I have treated it repeatedly for culumnaris. The last treatment killed all my bottom fish but the cories. I managed to get my 3 leucomelas cories (or whatever spotted variety they are) out and into the cory tank with the leucomelas, virginae, Pulchers, and bronze cories. They all seem to be doing fine.

But I haven't been able to get the peppers. Now one of them has turned up with a white cotton growth on it's dorsal. I started treating the tank with MelaFix yesterday. I am also adding PimaFix, but not taking the carbon out. The Melafix apparently doesn't need the carbon removed. I have sworn not to do another heavy med treatment on the tank, just try to keep the water clean. It is a 100usg. I am expecting the possibility of more losses, but the last treatment was so strong that I just don't want to do it again. I lost more fish to the med than the disease. I am only making the bacteria stronger. I do have a variety of Maracyn products, but the tank was treated for 10 days with Maracyn and Maracyn 2 before the treatment that killed off the other fish and melted my anacharis to sludge. Like I say, I don't want to treat with a heavy medication again. I don't consider Melafix a heavy med.

So, what?

Frequent water changes, MelaFix, what else can I do for the little guy?

 

[WILDER]

Can you issolate the sick fish as i would try tetracycline, as i wouldn't use it in the main tank.
Not the writer of this information below.
Columnaris (a.k.a. Mouth Fungus)



Symptoms:

An infected fish will have off-white to gray cotton-like patches on the head, fins, gills, body and particularly the mouth. In time, these areas will develop into open sores. Gill swelling may occur, gill filaments may stick together and excessive mucus may develop in the gill area. Rapid breathing can be seen. Fins may deteriorate to the point of leaving the fin rays bare. Muscles may be inflamed and capillaries may rupture. Fish, particularly livebearers, may exhibit "shimmying". Infection may be acute (killing an infected fish within hours), or chronic (lingering for several days before eventually killing the fish). As with most diseases, not all symptoms need be present.



Cause:

The bacterium Flexibacter columnaris.



Treatment:

Ensure that your water conditions (e.g., Ammonia, Nitrite, pH, Nitrate levels, and water temp.) are within their proper ranges. If not, perform a water change and/or treat the water accordingly. Recommended medications include: Furanace, Fungus Eliminator, Fungus Cure, Furacyn, Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, E.M. Tablets, Tetracycline, or Potassium Permanganate. Medicated foods are also recommended. Columnaris can be highly infectious and may quickly kill all aquarium inhabitants; therefore, early treatment is essential. All fish, including those not yet showing visible symptoms, as well as the aquarium they inhabit should be treated.

 

[jollysue]

As I said, Wilder, I have been treating this this tank for culumnaris (complete treatment rounds) with a series of different medical treatments. Most conspicuously two rounds of the combined treatment of Maracyn and Maracyn II (both a broad spectrum positive gram and a negative gram antibiotic) which was recommended by the Virbac (manufacturer) tech and the drsfosterandsmith tech. It held the infection in check. When that treatment was completed, I switched to a medication that my lfs (the source of the infection) gave me, Naladixic Acid, which he had used on the same infection successfully.

He confused me by giving me verbal instructions that differed from the instructions on the label. The result of that treatment repeated three times was that all my 12 otos died, my 3 Orange Bushynose Plecs, my beautiful Cockatoo boy, two clown loaches of three. as well as not stopping competely the culumnaris. Now it is starting to be very evident again. That treatment was so strong that I'm sure it weakened some fish, that did survive.

I believe I am justifiably reluctant to use another strong medication. The cory is the only one with the external growth, but I feel sure that others are infected.

I tried to get the peppers out before, but I have not been successful. It is hard to catch fish in a 100 usg planted tank. I was lucky to get the 3 leucomelas before they got it. I am looking for an opportunity to get the cockatoo trio out. They are very sensitive to medications. Also the clown. Then I can try some major treatments on the big tank and treat the sensitive fish that don't show symptoms with a short preventative treatment. Many of the tetras are looking off to me. So there are about 25 to 30 tetras plus the two cories that show signs of possible infection or that I think might survive a strong treatment. It would take a major second tank to separate the most at risk fish out. I might be able to do a 10 usg with the cockatoos and the remaining clown temporarily.

Sorry, I am thinking out loud here looking for the best alternatives.

Edit:
If you remember, this infection started in my Eclipse 12 with some quarantined neons. After a series of various treatments it seemed to clear up for a few weeks. Then if came back in the Eclipse and showed up in the neons in the big tank. I treated both tanks with 2 rounds of Maracyn and Maracyn II and anti biotic food.

It didn't work. I then treated both tanks with the Nalidixic Acid and more antibiotic food. (The Jungle brand is all I can find, and all it does is foul the water.) It stopped the infection in the neons in both tanks. It killed the otos, pygmy cories, and some sparklers in the Eclipse tank. It seems to have stopped the culumnaris in the Eclipse. I have removed the remaining gouramis (honeys and sparklers) and pygmies. They seem to be doing fine in their new home. The remaining neons and one oto are ok in the Eclipse.

But the 100 usg is still sick and had many deaths from the NA (Nalidixic Acid)

In addition, I have sold my house that I have been in for the better part since 1958 and have to move. Lots to do.

 

[WILDER]

Run some carbon and water changes to move the terrible med you were advised to use, tetracycline is a good med if yuu can issolate sick fish,
but it wipes the bacteria colony out in your tank, i would concentrate for now getting rid of the meds in your tank, then use maracyn one and two again, as i doubt they will kill your fish, i think you have some nasty meds in there which the fish can't tolerate causing death.

 

[jollysue]

I agree. It has been at least three weeks and 5 or 6 major (30% - 50%) water changes since the NA treatment. The NA saved the neons, which apparantly it is a specific treatment for. But I overdosed the tank and it is in everything including the substrate. It wiped out my anacharis to mush which further fouled the tank. I am doing a couple of water treatments a week and just starting to catch up on my sleep. The tetras have tolerated the NA pretty well even improving from the saddleback. The cory is the first fish other than the neons that I have seen with a disease not directly related to the NA.

I have two Emperor 400 running in the 100usg. I have changed the carbon in them a couple of times now. I plan to do another water change and change the carbon again in a day or two. Frankly medicating the 100 usg will take about $50 to a $100 with a combination of Maracyn and Maracyn 2 for two treatment rounds (10 days.) I would very much like to get the cockatoos out of the tank. Cockatoos are very sensitive to meds. I could put the cockatoo trio in a small Hex 5, maybe with the cory that does not have symptoms yet, and treat them with the Maracyn combo. The neons have only responded so far to the NA. With everyone out I could treat them again with the NA (correctly this time) or the tetracycline and just keep that tank for tetras for a long time. I could save the bio wheels or perhaps they need to be totally disinfected too And the tank restarted. With the move I am going to have to empty some tanks. That one seems to be a candidate for total renewal--boiling and baking and bleaching.

The main thing it seems first is to get everyone but the tetras out of there. That is a job and as far as I can see means tearing the tank apart. Melafix I hope is helping the little cory to cope until I can get to the bigger jobs. Some fish keepers have repeatedly recommended Melafix as a treatment of choice for this. I have not done a complete treatment of it at any time always switching to something else.

About the largest tank I can free up at this time is a Hex 5 or maybe two, yeah even a 10 usg. I would be putting some betta in a cory tank or two--or in a bowl or two.

 

[Inchworm]

Hi jollysue,

I'm so sorry to hear about all the trouble you are having.

Your peppered cory has a serious bacterial infection due to the stress caused by all of this. The way I would treat him is to isolate him, and any other corys that seem to be coming down with it too. Even a small tank would be fine for the treatment. I prefer Kanamycin over Tetracycline for corys, but either one is good. If necessary, you can do water changes to keep the parameters in line, but re-dose afterward until the full course is over. I like to go a little longer too.

For immediate relief, in the case of the one with the white growth, use salt dips. I have been successful using 1 tsp. of aquarium salt dissolved in 2 cups of tank water to treat this condition. Leave the fish in it for up to 20 minutes or so. If it rolls over, remove him back to the tank sooner. He might only tolerate a few minutes at first, but will be able to take longer treatments after awhile. You can repeat this treatment from 4-6 times a day, but you should see some results within the first few days.

This procedure might seem extreme, but if you are seeing white on him, or other fin or barbel deterioration, you have a very sick cory. This might save him so that the longer acting meds can do some good.

I hope things improve for you soon.

 

[jollysue]

The only thing I can see is to tear the tank completely apart. At that point, I still have too many fish to move out. I guess I can move the cockatoo trio and the two cories into the 2 Hex 5's. That still leaves the remaining clown loach and another who may still be dug in somewhere. And about 50+ tetras who are getting sick as well.

I will be moving all the tanks and fish no later than the 15th, too.

On top of that I am flying to Virginia Thursday morning until Saturday night. Ha! And I am expected to be resettled by the 15th of Dec. Ha!

Well, I let you all know.

 

[Inchworm]

Hi jollysue,

I feel so sorry for you! It's not bad enough that you have to move, OR that you have sick fish, but to have both to deal with at the same time is terrible!

I hope you can catch that peppered cory and give him the extra attention he needs.

 

[Chris Allan]

Hi. Sorry to hear about your problem. I had an outbreak of columnaris about 6 months ago. Wouldn't wish it on any fish keeper. Lost most of my fish. The most affected one was Striped Rafael, but he pulled through, must be hard as nails. It took just over 2 months to get shut of the problem. 25-30% water changes every week (over 100L each time) and also treated myxazin initailly. Myxazin didn't seem to help, so had to go a few days without treatment and carbon in the filter to remove any leftover meds. Then strated treating with Esha 2000. Every week things seemed to get better, but as I say, it took about 2 months to clear it. Was just about ready to scrap it all and start a fresh.

At the time, I also noticed a slight ammonia reading so made sure to keep of water changes, although this may have had a negative affect on the nitrifying bacteria, and I guess the medication didn't help either.

Lost a pair of L255, 1 L114, 1 L204, 1 L128 and an L007, not to mention 4 clowns, 2 rams, 6 zebra danio, 3 tiger barbs.

At the time, I also dropped the temp down a couple of degrees as I have read in afew places that it helps slow down the rate at which Columnaris spreads and multiplies.

Good luck with you tank. Hope there is some info you can use. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, I know what it's like getting up in the morning wondering 'Who's next?'

Chris

 

[Inchworm]

At the time, I also dropped the temp down a couple of degrees as I have read in afew places that it helps slow down the rate at which Columnaris spreads and multiplies.

Yes, dropping the temperature to no more than 75-76 degrees F. is helpful, and so is increasing the oxygen content in the water by adding an airstone. Both these things make the tank less hospitable for the harmful bacteria and slows their growth.

 

[jollysue]

Yes the tank has an air wand stretching the length (6') of the tank. I can sometimes tell which fish are stressed, because they start hanging out in the airstream. I had raised the temp a bit but have started to lower it again.

I have taken the carbon out and am completing the 5 days on mela/pimafix. I am not seeing much of the peppers. I tried to catch them in the place they were hanging by the end of the air wand. Now they aren't coming much and the cockatoo is starting to hang there. I was unsuccessful in catching him too. Thing with a big tank is the divider in the middle, and I have to stand on something.

The last time I saw the cory, it looked like the fuzzy part had decreased, but I haven't seen him in a day or so.

I appreciate your support, Chris. Meds in the UK are different than in the States. It has been a problem with this outbreak that it has been treated before it got to me, and I have treated it with several meds looking for something that will work. Although I always complete a medical treatment, still when any bacteria survive a treatment they breed a resisent strain to the antibiotic. I have a highly resistant strain of the bacteria.

Thanks Inchworm. I hate having to leave town. But the call from my son is strong. He needs me to respond to him. He and his wife are not always able to relate to the difficulties I have with their expectations of me.

I taught him a "Can Do!" attitude. It is coming back to haunt me.

I'm not sure I even have time to get to the shop to get any meds before I have to fly out. Then what about the three days I'm gone?

Can the Kanamycyin be used repeatedly until the infection is gone?

 

[Inchworm]

Can the Kanamycyin be used repeatedly until the infection is gone?

Hi jollysue,

There is the same problem with Kanamycin that you have with the other antibiotics. That is that some bacterial strains will be cured by it and others just won't. It's a good medicine and I like to start with it because it's a little more gentle on the beneficial bacteria than other Tetracycline or some of the other meds.

I know just what you mean about trying to catch fish in a big tank. Even a 55 gallon tank has that bar across and the fish seem to know that once they cross that center line, they are home free. I sometimes think they are laughing at me when I try to net them! Even corys, who seem to spend a lot of time just puttering around, can really swim fast when they want to!

MelaFix isn't much of a treatment, but sometimes it works. It's a very mild anti-bacterial that I find especially useful as a first line of defense sort of thing. I use it most often with my pandas. If they are looking out of sorts, I add a little and it seems to get them perked up quickly. While there is no way of really knowing for sure, I think I've headed off a lot of problems with it. At the very least, it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

I think, if I had your problems, I would be inclined to start taking that tank apart now, since it is going to be moved soon anyway. My thinking would be that, given all you've tried already, now it's time to let nature take its course. I'd try to keep the tank as clean as possible, add a little salt to help them along, feed them nourishing foods to build them up, and hope for the best. It's possible that some of the fish have been weakened irreparably by now and it might be better to lose them at this point than to move them and still have the problem. If you can catch that one with the white stuff and give him individual treatment, so much the better.

I know that sounds cold, but given that you have to move, it's a decision that you will have to make sooner or later. More aggressive treatment might only prolong that time, and some of the fish might be further weakened by it.

 

[jollysue]

Thanks Inchworm.

That's pretty much where I am at the moment in my thinking. Several fish have died just from the medications. So when the cory showed up with the cotton fin I decided to just treat with the Mela/PimaFix. All but the BN that I took out of that tank and rehomed have done well and so far, knock on wood, it hasn't spread. I can't see any sense in treating again with a Maracyn combo. I would rather give the fish a shot on their own than treat with the Nalidixic Acid--which does treat the neons, but kills the bottom fish. If I can catch any of the bottom fish I will, but all that happens so far is that they go into hiding.

Yes. as soon as I know where they are going, I intend to break that tank down first. I suppose I could start taking it apart. But it's not going to happen until I get back from VA on Sat. night. I want to have another tank ready to put them in, then I can totally clean and zap every thing in that tank. Figure I'll bake the substrate. To Hell with the little fishy killers!!!

Thanks for your time and thoughts on this. I have hopes some can make it, still. That one clown has survived lots.

 

[jollysue]

I showed up for the airplane to VA. I was a week early

So I spent the day water changing and apartment hunting.

Then I took all the hidy spots out of the big tank. Everyone but the one pepper looks good. There are actually 2 clowns that survived so far. I almost caught the cotton fin cory twice. Had him in the net more than once. But he ended up getting away jumping out. And the rest of the fish were getting very anxious too. The sick cory's fin is not healing. He is not getting better. I am very sorry. I will look again and try to get him. The cotton is half way down his fin.

 

[Inchworm]

I showed up for the airplane to VA. I was a week early

So I spent the day water changing and apartment hunting.

Hi jollysue

I had to laugh when I read that! It sounds like something I might do. I wasn't paying attention tonight and forgot to get off the bus at my stop. I ended up getting off at the next one and, since there was an lfs there and I needed worms anyway, went in and before I left, I bought another 10 gallon tank. Then I had to take a taxi home.

I'm sorry that your cory is not doing better, but it's good that the infection is moving slowly. If you can catch him, there is a good chance that the salt treatment and a little MelaFix in the water, will do him a lot of good. It's certainly worth trying, if you can catch him.

I hope you can find an apartment, where you can keep all your tanks, quickly. How does the situation look so far?