My new tank setup

[Beau87]

G'day Byron I can confirm it is "flourish conprehensive" pic attached, I leave the white/blue light on for 8hrs or so then when gets dark I have only the blue light on, then when I go to sleep I turn all the lights off an put the airstone on for 8hrs or so,wake up an turn the airstone off.

 

[Byron]

Just wondering what do you think are the benefits of a simple water conditioner compared to something like Prime?

I will not use Prime myself as it messes with water chemistry more than needed. The "best" water conditioner is one that does only what you need, and no more.

Most people have chlorine, some have chloramine, and these must be rapidly neutralized. Beyond this, the next common "benefit" for many conditioners is the detoxification of heavy metals; most people probably do not have heavy metal issues in their tap water, but there are times when one might. Some homes have copper water pipes and these especially when new can leech copper into the tap water. Municipal water authorities usually test for heavy metals and post the data, but levels that are "safe" for humans are not always safe for fish--copper is one of these. Those who only have chlorine, or chloramine, only require a conditioner that deals with these. The heavy metal benefit is worth having, and most (if not all) conditioners include this so far as I am aware.

If you have ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in the tap water, then a conditioner that deals with these may be advisable. But it depends upon the substance and the level. There are two conditioners that deal with all three, Prime and Ultimate [I think the latter also handles nitrate, but doesn't matter]. But unless you have one or more of these at a significant level, you do not need either conditioner; for one thing, they only detoxify these substances temporarily--Seachem says Prime is effective for 24-36 hours, after which the substances if still present will revert to being toxic again. But ammonia and nitrite at very low levels which would usually be the case in municipal water, will readily be taken up by the nitrifying bacteria and/or the plants. Nitrate is a very different issue, and high levels in the tap water need something much beyond any water conditioner.

You will note that in the fore-going I said in the tap water; ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the aquarium need special handling, and Prime is about the worst thing to use because it adds chemicals which further stress the fish and it is temporary. Repeated dosing of Prime as a "treatment" for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is detrimental and dangerous.

The other thing to watch out for in conditioners are the risky and dangerous substances that may be additives. One or two add aloe vera, which is now known to be harmful to fish gills long-term. Another adds valerian; once you see the side effects of this "drug," you wonder how anyone could think it can somehow benefit fish. Much the same goes for any "herbal" substance intended to "coat the fish" and "replenish the slime coat." Nonsense. Anything that is glue-like to coat the fish in water is going to be doing a lot of damage coating the gills and cells.

I use and recommend API's Tap Water Conditioner, which I personally believe is the best product of its kind. It is the most concentrated (you need half of the Prime dose for chlorine) and there are no other conditioners as concentrated as this, which means less chemical substances in the water to get into the fish and cause issues. It also deals with heavy metals, which as I said is probably a good idea.

 

[Byron]

G'day Byron I can confirm it is "flourish conprehensive" pic attached, I leave the white/blue light on for 8hrs or so then when gets dark I have only the blue light on, then when I go to sleep I turn all the lights off an put the airstone on for 8hrs or so,wake up an turn the airstone off.

In post #25 @seangee dealt with the light which seems to be good. And if you are using Flourish Comprehensive once a week at the dose on the bottle, on the day after the water change, that should be sufficient.

Use the white lights for 8 hours a day, and have them on a timer so it is consistent day-to-day. This is important not only for plants but fish too. The blue "dusk" light I would keep to no more than an hour after the white goes off. You can set the 8-hours to be any period of eight consecutive hours, so have it when you are normally home to enjoy the aquarium. The extra blue light beyond this period is not helping the plants, and can cause algae.

What is the airstone for? If you have a filter, it should create surface disturbance permanently and this should be all you need. CO2 (carbon) is a major plant nutrient which builds during the dark, and if it is being driven off this is not going to benefit. There can be times when night additional surface disturbance is needed, but not always.

 

[utahfish]

Plants are getting worse, ambulia nearly dead, Anubis is dying leaves are brown other leaves on the other plants are turning clear

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

Here is a visual pic of different signs of nutrient deficiencies in plants and how to spot them, once the deficiency is identified one can go about remedying it.

 

[Treestone]

I will not use Prime myself as it messes with water chemistry more than needed. The "best" water conditioner is one that does only what you need, and no more.

Most people have chlorine, some have chloramine, and these must be rapidly neutralized. Beyond this, the next common "benefit" for many conditioners is the detoxification of heavy metals; most people probably do not have heavy metal issues in their tap water, but there are times when one might. Some homes have copper water pipes and these especially when new can leech copper into the tap water. Municipal water authorities usually test for heavy metals and post the data, but levels that are "safe" for humans are not always safe for fish--copper is one of these. Those who only have chlorine, or chloramine, only require a conditioner that deals with these. The heavy metal benefit is worth having, and most (if not all) conditioners include this so far as I am aware.

If you have ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in the tap water, then a conditioner that deals with these may be advisable. But it depends upon the substance and the level. There are two conditioners that deal with all three, Prime and Ultimate [I think the latter also handles nitrate, but doesn't matter]. But unless you have one or more of these at a significant level, you do not need either conditioner; for one thing, they only detoxify these substances temporarily--Seachem says Prime is effective for 24-36 hours, after which the substances if still present will revert to being toxic again. But ammonia and nitrite at very low levels which would usually be the case in municipal water, will readily be taken up by the nitrifying bacteria and/or the plants. Nitrate is a very different issue, and high levels in the tap water need something much beyond any water conditioner.

You will note that in the fore-going I said in the tap water; ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the aquarium need special handling, and Prime is about the worst thing to use because it adds chemicals which further stress the fish and it is temporary. Repeated dosing of Prime as a "treatment" for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is detrimental and dangerous.

The other thing to watch out for in conditioners are the risky and dangerous substances that may be additives. One or two add aloe vera, which is now known to be harmful to fish gills long-term. Another adds valerian; once you see the side effects of this "drug," you wonder how anyone could think it can somehow benefit fish. Much the same goes for any "herbal" substance intended to "coat the fish" and "replenish the slime coat." Nonsense. Anything that is glue-like to coat the fish in water is going to be doing a lot of damage coating the gills and cells.

I use and recommend API's Tap Water Conditioner, which I personally believe is the best product of its kind. It is the most concentrated (you need half of the Prime dose for chlorine) and there are no other conditioners as concentrated as this, which means less chemical substances in the water to get into the fish and cause issues. It also deals with heavy metals, which as I said is probably a good idea.

Thanks for the reply. I've never seen API's tap water condition being sold only stress zyme which is why I use Prime as its the cheapest for concentration. I'll have a good look for some of that as I only have chlorine-treated water. In what way is Prime dangerous by the repetitive dosing of its chemicals?

 

[Treestone]

According to a representative of Seachem
'As far as direct toxicity, overdosing Prime isn't any concern. It won't poison your fish. It is a reducing agent, so what can cause an issue when over-dosed is that if there aren't enough other things in the water to react with, like nitrogenous waste or chlorine, it will react with and reduce oxygen. This can suffocate the inhabitants of your tank.'

 

[Essjay]

One of the reasons a lot of us don't like Prime is that they won't say what's in it. But if it does everything they say it will, its a cocktail of chemicals. Everything we add to a tank ends up inside the fish, so the fewer chemicals we add the better.
Seachem would say there's nothing wrong with it as they want to sell it. Don't forget this is the same company which makes Flourish Excel, a powerful disinfectant marketed as being safe for fish when even a tiny overdose can kill them.

I have only found API Tap Water Conditioner in one shop a fair distance from me. I buy it from Ebay.

 

[seangee]

But if it does everything they say it will, its a cocktail of chemicals.

I read an interesting article the other day which claims it doesn't do everything it says it will. Sorry I never bookmarked it. The article was written by a chemist (as stated - I can't verify this) who had analysed what it was and gave the composition. He claimed that it does not detoxify nitrite in any way, but that Seachem were relying on the fact that nobody can ascertain that and if they were trying to they already had problems anyway.

 

[Byron]

I read an interesting article the other day which claims it doesn't do everything it says it will. Sorry I never bookmarked it. The article was written by a chemist (as stated - I can't verify this) who had analysed what it was and gave the composition. He claimed that it does not detoxify nitrite in any way, but that Seachem were relying on the fact that nobody can ascertain that and if they were trying to they already had problems anyway.

This article may have been one that @essjay linked in a thread this past week, there were two, and they discounted the claims concerning ammonia binding and such. Or it may have been another you saw.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the reply. I've never seen API's tap water condition being sold only stress zyme which is why I use Prime as its the cheapest for concentration. I'll have a good look for some of that as I only have chlorine-treated water. In what way is Prime dangerous by the repetitive dosing of its chemicals?

According to a representative of Seachem
'As far as direct toxicity, overdosing Prime isn't any concern. It won't poison your fish. It is a reducing agent, so what can cause an issue when over-dosed is that if there aren't enough other things in the water to react with, like nitrogenous waste or chlorine, it will react with and reduce oxygen. This can suffocate the inhabitants of your tank.'

On the API StressZyme, this is another product that should not be used. If you read what they say StressZyme does, it is unbelievable from a scientific point of view. No chemical sludge mixture is going to replace basic maintenance like water changes. If there was such a miracle product, the world would not have water shortages.

As you can see, even reliable (generally) manufacturers like API and Seachem--both of whose products I do use--are not totally reliable. I look into the claims made about a product, and what it contains, before deciding whether or not it may be "safe."

How one defines "safe for fish" and similar statements can vary a great deal. If they mean using "x" is safe because fish will show no signs externally of trouble from it, and not turn belly-up within minutes, that is one interpretation. I use a different one; I consider "safe" to be exactly what it says, safe. Obviously overdoses of almost anything is not safe, but when I look at the ingredients in a product and find for example with Excel that it is glutaraldehyde, and then I research that and find it is used to disinfect surgical instruments in hospitals, in embalming fluid, in anti-freeze, in ship ballasts to kill bacteria...I do not consider any chemical that does any of that to be "safe" for any living creature to be living in. Splash some on your skin, and it will burn. And they say this is safe for fish?

 

[Treestone]

Well so far I can't find anything to say Prime will harm the fish but there is evidence it does not have any effect on nitrogen ions. So because of this, it is reasonably overpriced but still cheaper than many lower concentration dechlorinators. I've read that it uses sodium dithionate compared to the more common sodium thiosulfate which gives the sulfury smell when reacting with chlorine, they both work as well as the other. Any links to some articles would be greatly appreciated but so far using Prime or overdosing any dechlorinator is just a waste of money and probably doesn't have an effect on the fish.

 

[jonnyc88]

I am also going through a similiar experience to cycle my tank again. I have fish and live plants in the tank.
The brown spots on the leaf could be algae, what are your Nitrate readings?
For the plants I've got some root tabs down when I first planted them and they seem to be doing well. I believe root tabs lasts 1-2 months. I used API Leave Zone once every 2 weeks but have stopped now as Nitrates is more than enough in my tank to sustain the plants.

How is your filter output setup? It should ideally be creating some bubbles in the water. I used to have a spray bar but now using "duck bill" at one end of tank. I've used some suction cups and airline tubing to adjust the stream. I used to notice fish gasping as well and I believe that's down to poor aeration and also water issues I used to have.

I'd definitely recommend daily water changes. To find out how much to change I had a play of trying a few (70,60,50,40,30% etc) until it's enough to reduce ammonia and nitrite down to 0ppm.
I would also test the water twice daily, once before and once after the water change to monitor ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Use a decent test kit, not strips if possible.

Do not use too much chemicals, I only use Prime to condition the tap water and also Stability to help establish the friendly bacteria.
Also check how much you are feeding your fish. Over feeding is bad and could cause more issues with the water.