My Fish Are Eat Each Other...

[mbpted]

... or the great self cleaning tank.
 
My last two tragic deaths were very easy to take care of as they simply dissappeared from the tank. No carcas sitting at the bottom, no floaters, nothing stuck to the filter intake, they were just gone.
 
Unless they are disintegrating, which I think I would notice, I think my other fish are eating them.
 
I can't tell if they are killing them first, then eating them or simply taking advantage of a new food supply that's just appeared, I don't know.
 
What I do know is that my survivers are a hardy bunch. 3 Serpae Tetras, 4 Danios, and 2 Blood Fin Tetras. They've been in my tank for about a year, or more. Happy as can be. The tanks not too big - 10 gallon, which gives each about a gallon a piece. (I've read that that's an acceptable amount of space.) The largest Serpae is about the size of a nickle, so they are not large fish.
 
The new intros have been a small Cory Catfish which lasted about 2 weeks, and most recently, a Chinese Algae eater which lasted about 3 weeks.
 
The first was a puzzlement. (where did it go??) The second was a tragedy. I liked the Algae Eater, he was like a vacuum and my tank was never cleaner when he was around.
 
The others used to chase them a bit, but no more than they do each other and I never saw any overt nipping.
 
The water quality is good except for a high PH which I haven't tried to control. (It reads up in the 8.8 range on my chart which is as high as my chart goes.)
 
However, when I introduce new fish, I always drip acclimate them for a couple hours. And the fact that they don't die outright feels like it's not my water that's doing them in.
 
The tank sits in a room that gets sunlight - thus the extra algae - so could the algae eater have had *too* much to eat? Maybe he over ate and died of a bloated stomach ache?
 
Could I be feeding my others too little? They go through the food I give them very quickly, nothing to spare and nothing floating to the bottom. (which is what I read means too much) Are they so hungry that any new fish looks good to them?
 
I'd like to get another Algae Eater but I'd like to try to figure out what killed the first one, and I want to make sure I'm not simply dropping in new fish food for the others.
 
Any thoughts?
 
 

 

[Byron]

I will offer my honest assessment, because that is what benefits a fourm, but I expect you willnot like what I write.  But I mean it for the best...your fish.
 
A 10g is simply not enough space for the fish you have; I'll come back to why they seem "OK" in a moment.  Please do not add more fish, they will very probably also die.
 
First, you have species that are known as shoaling fish, meaning that they must have a group.  Six is often mentioned as the minimum, and for some this can work, but for others (like the Serpae T) it is not near sufficient.  Shoaling fish are programmed by nature to live in large groups.  There are several reasons they need this.  Security/safety in numbers is one, but many species also have an hierarchy that forms within the group.  When this is denied them, they become stressed.  And please don't say they are not...they are, guaranteed.  Stress causes other internal issues we can't see.  And the fish live a shorter than normal lifespan as a result.  They frequently die from some other issue brought on by the stress, but even if they somehow manage to get past that, their lifespan is always less than what it should be in better conditions.
 
Some of this is physical space, some is in the water conditions.  I'm not going to get into this now; I have written of it so often, but if asked I will elaborate.  New fish added are going to sense all this trouble and be stressed right from the start.  Fish, like any animal, can only tolerate so much stress for so long before it becomes acute and then it is game over, with severe health problems that may drag them on for a time, or death.
 
The fact that the fish haven't grown as they should have after a year is just another sign that things are not at all good.  Aside from all this, please research any fish before you acquire it, so you will know what it needs (numbers, water, tank space, etc).  The Chinese Algae Eater for instance will attain six inches, and by then it almost always becomes a very nasty fish, killing others.  It needs a much larger tank, but I would avoid it anywhere as it is not going to suit a community aquarium whatever the size.  Anyway, algae is the very least of the issues.  Sorry.
 
Byron.

 

[Paradise3]

I will offer my honest assessment, because that is what benefits a fourm, but I expect you willnot like what I write.  But I mean it for the best...your fish.
 
A 10g is simply not enough space for the fish you have; I'll come back to why they seem "OK" in a moment.  Please do not add more fish, they will very probably also die.
 
First, you have species that are known as shoaling fish, meaning that they must have a group.  Six is often mentioned as the minimum, and for some this can work, but for others (like the Serpae T) it is not near sufficient.  Shoaling fish are programmed by nature to live in large groups.  There are several reasons they need this.  Security/safety in numbers is one, but many species also have an hierarchy that forms within the group.  When this is denied them, they become stressed.  And please don't say they are not...they are, guaranteed.  Stress causes other internal issues we can't see.  And the fish live a shorter than normal lifespan as a result.  They frequently die from some other issue brought on by the stress, but even if they somehow manage to get past that, their lifespan is always less than what it should be in better conditions.
 
Some of this is physical space, some is in the water conditions.  I'm not going to get into this now; I have written of it so often, but if asked I will elaborate.  New fish added are going to sense all this trouble and be stressed right from the start.  Fish, like any animal, can only tolerate so much stress for so long before it becomes acute and then it is game over, with severe health problems that may drag them on for a time, or death.
 
The fact that the fish haven't grown as they should have after a year is just another sign that things are not at all good.  Aside from all this, please research any fish before you acquire it, so you will know what it needs (numbers, water, tank space, etc).  The Chinese Algae Eater for instance will attain six inches, and by then it almost always becomes a very nasty fish, killing others.  It needs a much larger tank, but I would avoid it anywhere as it is not going to suit a community aquarium whatever the size.  Anyway, algae is the very least of the issues.  Sorry.
 
Byron.

I agree 100% with all of this.
 
Especially the CAE issues though I have seen them reach larger than 6 inch very occasionally which only adds to the worry.

 

[Akasha72]

well for what it's worth I can see the problem straight off ... you mention your Ph is 8.8 .... this is way too high for cories and tetra's - they belong in a Ph at the other end of the scale. They originate from the amazon where the Ph is often well below 6 - so 8.8 is far too high for them.
 
I'm not going to get into tank size as I'm no good at converting gallons to litres and I work in litres. But yes, agreeing with the CAE - best avoided they start out great but eventually they turn their attention to not just eating algae but eating your fish - starting with the slime coat on their bodies. They also reach a massive size. If your tank is small stick with snails - they will like the hard water as it's good for their shells. 
 
You could try adding lots of bogwood to your tank as this can help to soften the water and bring the Ph down but the best option is to seek out fish that like the water you have and for that you will need to research fish before you buy

 

[Paradise3]

well for what it's worth I can see the problem straight off ... you mention your Ph is 8.8 .... this is way too high for cories and tetra's - they belong in a Ph at the other end of the scale. They originate from the amazon where the Ph is often well below 6 - so 8.8 is far too high for them.
 
I'm not going to get into tank size as I'm no good at converting gallons to litres and I work in litres. But yes, agreeing with the CAE - best avoided they start out great but eventually they turn their attention to not just eating algae but eating your fish - starting with the slime coat on their bodies. They also reach a massive size. If your tank is small stick with snails - they will like the hard water as it's good for their shells. 
 
You could try adding lots of bogwood to your tank as this can help to soften the water and bring the Ph down but the best option is to seek out fish that like the water you have and for that you will need to research fish before you buy

10 Gallons - 45.46 Litres
 
The pH issue you mention explains the cories but not the tetra's which are still alive a year later Akasha. 
As for lowering pH that would work until you do a waterchange and then it would shoot back up when new water with new 8.8 pH.
 
So I agree with Akasha, find fish suitable for your high pH that won't outgrow your tank/overstock it

 

[Byron]

I am not convinced the pH is the issue, though it is likely a contributor.  But in fairness to the OP, we must point out that pH is only one factor of water parameters and not normally the most significant.  The GH (general hardness) is more crucial when we are dealing with soft/hard water fish.  And aside from that, attempts at lowering the pH without knowing and dealing (if necessary) with the GH and KH will not be successful.  This takes some explanation for new aquarists, but I will wait before I delve into that.  We have far more serious issues here.  B.

 

[Essjay]

10 Gallons - 45.46 Litres

 
 

 
 It's worse than that if the OP is using American gallons. 10 US galls = 37.9 litres.

 

[Paradise3]

 

10 Gallons - 45.46 Litres

 
 

 
 It's worse than that if the OP is using American gallons. 10 US galls = 37.9 litres.
 

 
Ah yeah, didn't think of that

 

[mbpted]

Thank you for all the responses. First to clarify a few things for your interest. I am measuring in American gallons. Every year I ask myself: is this the year we switch to the metric system, and it never happens. I've stopped holding my breath.
 
I have also read that trying to adjust the pH in my water is not an easy or desirable thing to do, so I've left that alone.
 
Based on the first two posts (by Byron and Paradise3) it sounds like I have a couple choices: Replace the fish I currently have with fish that will thrive in a 10 gal. tank. (and a higher pH)
 
Or get a larger tank and increase the numbers of the tetras and danios so they have more company.
 
Both choices may require some thought. 1st, if I try to replace them, will my local fish store accept my fish in trade or even donation? Will they be okay being added to a tank with the other fish for sale. 2nd, if I get a bigger tank and add more, will the new fish and old accept each other.
 
I guess the underlying question boils down to this: Are my fish so "damaged" by stress that any change will hurt them more? Can I save them? (even if it means giving them away?)
 
And another clarification. The Algae eater was actually a "Siamese Algae Eater" not "Chinese." After checking my notes, I had researched the Chinese, but the store had the Siamese so that's what I ended up getting. My latest reading tells me it would probably have gotten just as big.
 
I have not had much luck with snails. And shrimp seem to be even more like fish food, than fish food.
 
Thanks again for contributing to the conversation and my education.

 

[Akasha72]

A siamese algae eater can not stay in a tank that size. I have 3 in my 4ft tank and I'm actually considering re-homing them as they are now so large I feel they need a larger tank - something I don't have the room for. They reach 6 inches in length and around 2 inches in girth. Mine have got far bigger than I expected and I researched them thoroughly before buying.
 
If you are looking for an algae eater for a small tank then consider otocinclus or snails

 

[Byron]

I agree with Akasha above.  And thank you for your response, mbpted; I will try to answer your questions.
 

Based on the first two posts (by Byron and Paradise3) it sounds like I have a couple choices: Replace the fish I currently have with fish that will thrive in a 10 gal. tank. (and a higher pH)
Or get a larger tank and increase the numbers of the tetras and danios so they have more company.
 

 
Agreed, thank you.
 

Both choices may require some thought. 1st, if I try to replace them, will my local fish store accept my fish in trade or even donation? Will they be okay being added to a tank with the other fish for sale. 2nd, if I get a bigger tank and add more, will the new fish and old accept each other.
 

 
I cannot speak for a fish store; some will accept fish, some will not (and for very good reason, namely risk of disease).  To the second question though, yes, in this case you should have no issues adding more of the species, in a larger tank.  But think this through.
 
Serpae Tetra (Hyphessobrycon eques) require a group of no less than ten, preferably 12 minimum.  And this means a 30 gallon tank, just for them (some substrate fish are OK, but no other upper level fish).  In a larger tank, other upper fish (the bloodfin tetra and zebra danio would be fine, in larger groups obviously) can be added and the Serpae limited to ten.
 
And while we're here, the Bloodfin Tetra is known to get a bit nippy too.  This is actually common with all species in this genus (Aphyocharax, this species is A. anisitsi).  I mention this because with a larger tank you will obviously be thinking of other species, and sedate fish should not be in that plan with the Bloodfins or the Serpae present, it is just too much of a temptation for the nippers.  So more active and "robust" fish would work.
 

I guess the underlying question boils down to this: Are my fish so "damaged" by stress that any change will hurt them more? Can I save them? (even if it means giving them away?)
 

 
Again considering the species, there should be no issue improving things and adding more of their species.  Doing this in a new space is a bonus too, and this sometimes helps.  You may see nipping within the Serpae when they are increased, but within the species is not the same as with other species, and I would expect that to be curtailed.
 
Byron.