My fish are dying!

[1canuck2]

Hi,

I am a fairly recent fish fan who just got an aquarium at Xmas. I have a 20 gallon tank (with starter kit: filter, heater, etc.)

I started with 3 penguin tetras and 3 swords and things went wwell. I gradually added more fish over the following 6 weeks.

Now my fish are gradually dying. Here's the story.

I had 3 swords, 3 pengiun tetras, 3 neon tetras, a black lyre-tailed molly, a silver molly, a mickey mouse platty, a green speckled platty, 1 angel fish, a cory catfish and 2 plecos.

About 5 weeks ago, the black molly got ich. I upped the salt content and raised the temperature of the water to 84 as well as adding some ich medicine. After losing both of the mollies to ich, everything settled down and 3 weeks ago I added 3 rummyhead tetras, a speckled molly and a silver balloon molly. About six days later the balloon molly died. Since then I have a lost the the speckled molly, the mickey mouse platty, one of the swords, one of the rummyheads and one of the plecos. None of the recent deaths have been related to ich as there have been no salty marks on them and the way in which they faded to death was different.

Basically each fish that died started by swimming face down and flopping from side to side. When it is feeding time they seem to be able to get around well, but in general they are listing a lot in the water. Within a day or two of this starting they die.

I have upped my water changes to twice a week and have been adding two heaped table spoons of salt instead of one (per 5 gallon change). I only feed them once a day and do a gravel cleaning with every water change (about 25% of the gravel per time). I have reduced the amount I feed them to as much as they eat in 60-90seconds as it seemed like there was a lot of left over food in the gravel cleanings.

I have had my water tested at the aquarium store for the past three weeks and they said everything is fine except for the nitrates which were a little high, thus the more frequent water changes (which I have been doing for 3 weeks).

Still my fish die.

I am getting very frustrated with this as I can't seem to nail down the reason for the deaths.

One thing that I did about the time the deaths started was add a pottery "No Fishing" sign that my son made at pottery class to the tank. The pottery is food-grade, dishwasher safe and has been fired and glazed. I asked at the aquarium store and they said it should be fine to add this to the tank. In desperation, I took out the sign about two days agod, but I still ost a fish yesyerday (if the sign was the problem, this fish may have been on his way out anyone and too far gone to save - so I still don't know if thats the problem).

The rest of the fish seem happy and healthy ujntil suyddenly one will be swimming funny and then dies.

Sorry for the long first post, but I thought I'd try and provide as much info upfront as possible. I am getting desperate. I love my tank, and try to take good care of my fish, but still they die. Any help would be truly appreciated.

Thanks


Robin Smith

 

[DrOizo]

Now with the molly 'ich' are you sure it wasn't molly spot due to adverse water conditions. as you know mollies are brackish fish and the water params are pretty important when it comes to them. your upping of salt content could have resulted in the plecos death. They can't stand any salt even thought they show no outward signs of illness

 

[Angel Lady]

the reason you lost your pleco is because of the salt you cannot add salt to a tank with scaless fish it will kill them the pleco and corys arent supposed to have any salt at all and that is a lot of fish for a 20 gallon tank. The rule of thumb is a inch of fish per gallon of water. You need to do a little research on your fish (plecos and cories should not have any salt at all) Please get them out of that salt it will kill them off. Then post the results of your water test so we can try to figure out what is going wrong. I think you need to take some of your fish back to the lfs you have way to many and another thing cories are a schooling fish and do best if they are kept in groups of 3 or more.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Salt?

Here is a link all about adding salt to corys and likewise plecos Salt!, Do not use with cory's!
Hopefully changing your water and not adding salt will be a step in the right direction.

 

[1canuck2]

Thanks for the replies.

While I lost one of the plecos, (and appreciate the heads up on the salt thing), my real problems/concerns are with the mollies, platties and tetras that are dying consistently. I have lost 7 of them and they should be fine in the salt level I have in the tank. I am trying to find what I need to do to stop the deaths. I even upped my salt as I was told it would help (and my remaing pleco and cory seem okay).

The mollies and platties will need the salt water, right? And the tetras won't mind some salt, so given the fish I have, I think I need to have some salt in my tank. (As an aside, what do you recommend for an algae eater and bottom feeder in a tank that has salt added?)

Also, if the algae eater and cory catfish I currently have are doing fine in my tank, is there a need to remove them? I realize this may be a newbie question, so I am genuinely asking. I am going to the lfs tomorrow and will ask them about returning the cory and pleco, it was on their advice that I bought them and upped the salt, so they should be accomodating (Big Al's).

My urgency however is with finding out whats up with the other fish, so help in that direction would also be appreciated.

You think that's too many fish? How so? Given the inch per fish rule, and that all my fish are small, I didn't think it 15 fish was too much in a 20 gallon tank, looking at many sigs around here, it seems others have similar quantities.

Currently I have 2 swords, 3 pengiuns, an angel fish, 2 rummyheads, 3 glow-light tetras, the cory and the pleco. Only the swords and the angel are an inch long, all others are less than an inch, even if I count an inch per fish, thats only 14, which would imply room for 6 more. Obviously I am a newb, so if I need schooling the help will be appreciated.

Also, I was told by a fish "expert" friend that the inch of fish per gallon rule did not have to include adding an algae eater and a bottom feeder. If this is wrong too, please let me know.

 

[Angel Lady]

no I wasnt saying you need schooling that wasnt what I was saying at all I am sorry if you took that the wrong way I meant the cories are a fish that run together I see what i have done now the cories are a schoaling fish they need to kept in groups of three or more that is what I meant.and some of the fish you have will grow some more and then they will be to many for your size tank and the mollies will be having babies to and that takes up more room.As for the salt and your pleco and cory it will kill them. If you have them types of fish and if you are planning on keeping your mollies then you do need to get another tank for the pleco and cory because the salt will kill them I am very surprized that it hasnt already. I think mabey you might have some kind of parasite that is killing your fish. Do thier gills look red or anything like that or are they scrapping off from the gravel in the tank? And once again I am sorry if you took what I have said to you the wrong way I sure didnt mean that the way it sounded I am sorry i AM JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU WITH YOUR PROBLEM I SURE DONT WANT TO MAKE YOU MAD AT ME OR HURT YOUR FEELINGS THAT IS THE LAST THINK I WANT TO DO.

 

[1canuck2]

Thanks for the reply.

No hurt feelings here, I recognize I am new to this and don't know it so I am willing to soak up any advice you may have.

I'll ask the fish store about returning the cory and pleco, I don't want to set up a second tank since I can't get the first one right yet!

Basically, I want to have a freshwater tank with as much colour and variety as possible. Thus the selection of orange swords, silver and black penguins, the beautiful rummyheads, the angel and the black and white mollies.

I added the bottom feeder and algae eaters to help keep the tank clean of algae, they are certainly not my favourite fish (or the most exciting), so I would get rid of them before my tetras.

So, if we assume the cory and pleco are gone, what should I do about the dying problem with my other fish? Their gills are not red and they are not scraping on the gravel or anything. They seem pretty healthy and active, until one day, one of them will start swimming strangely, head down, then within a day or so it's dead. It seems to be randomly killing my fish since I lost one platty, but still have one that appears to be thriving, one rummyhead, but still have two doing well, one sword died, two remain, and so on.

I think I am going to give up on the mollies and platties since I'm not having much luck there. I would like to get a couple of harlequin raspboras, would they do well with the tetras? I am not adding any more fish until I find out what is wrong with the tank and my fish stop dying.

Also, is there a salt friendly algae eater who can help control the algae in my tank?

 

[Angel Lady]

I am going out on a limb here but how high is the ph in your tank they are only one other thing I can think of and that is high nitrites would cause them to dart and swim funny to besides ph I bet it is one or the other if you have a salted tank and do regular water changes the mollies and platies should be fine. I will have to ask someone about the algee eaters because I dont know of nothing right off but I will check for you if you want me to. Post your water readings for me if you dont care and we will go from there. They sure should be some kind of answer for what is killing your fish we just have to find it . And once again I sure didnt mean to hurt your feelings and I am sorry if I did.

 

[bstier]

I think mabey you might have some kind of parasite that is killing your fish. Do thier gills look red or anything like that or are they scrapping off from the gravel in the tank?

A few of my fish are doing this...whats going on? not to de-rail or anything...thought maybe someone could help me out

 

[1canuck2]

I had my water tested at the lfs today. I didn't write down the results (I know, I know) but the results I can remember were:

PH 7.8
Nitrates 40 ppm
Hardness ~190 (We have hard water in my city)

Nitrite and Ammonia were "very good" according to the lfs owner (as well as from my looking at the chart, one of the two registered as a 0, the other was between the 0 and the first colour block).

The last time I had it tested, the nitrates were the only thing they thought was high, although I didn't record the number, it was higher than 40pmm, which is at the top end of the "Very safe" range according to the test kit.

So I guess my more frequent water changes have helped bring the nitrates in line. Although this doesn;t help explain the death of ym rummynose and sword this past week if the levels were all good.

I talked to the guy about the salt thing and my cory/pleco and he said they can handle a "little" salt, but the amount I have been putting in was high. He saw no reason why I could not have both the pleco and cory in the same tank as the mollies and platties and be able to make all happy with the right amount of salting. The recommendation from one of his employees last week was to add two heqaped tablesppons of salt per 5 gallons. I told him this, and he said that was too high for the cory/pleco but the molly/platty would like it and could handle more. He suggested one heaped tablespoon per 5 to 10 gallons.

This fish store (Big Al's) is considered the best in town as they are a "professional" store as opposed to the Walmart / Pet Store Chain type fish suppliers. The guy I talked to was the owner, so you'd expect him to know what he is talking about (or not?). I have some friends, one of which knows this guy well and introduced me to him when I was getting started, so I'd also not expect him to be feeding me a line.

I can understand one of the young store employees maybe speaking out of their ass, but is he really full of #### when he says the corp/plecos and ollies/platties can live in one tank with the right level of salt?

Also, how does the health of my water, explain the random deaths of swords, tetras, platties and mollies, while others of the same fish type continue to thrive. All of the fish have pretty different characteristics. There are no obvious signs of malady in the fish.

The lfs owner said while it is a high number of deaths, some attrition is natural when setting up a tank, and while there are often obvious problems that can explain deaths (such as ich and water problems) these do not seem to be the case here.

I am very frustrated all round. I do not want to bombard my tank with some broad spectrum medicine if I don't know whats up, and all of the things I am able to control, I am controlling well. But, I don;t want to lose anymore fish.

Could some of this still be related to the newness of my tank and/or possible overfeeding. I used to feed them twice a day and cut back to once a day when the nitrates go high as I read that uneaten food could contribute to the high nitrates.

Anyone with any wisdom to give? I'd really appreciate it.

 

[staredecisis]

Hello 1canuck2

I've read all of your posts in this thread, and the replies. The first thing I'd like to say is, I know some people will tell you that plecos and cories can "tolerate" "some" salt, but remember, humans can "tolerate" some poison, and it will make us feel very ill, but we will live. Probably not our full life span (nor will the scaleless fish) but surviving is not necessarily thriving, in my opinion. What you wish to do with them is your choice, though.

Secondly, my guess at what is getting at your fish is, possibly stress. Fish are easily stressed out by environmental changes, and like in people, too much stress kills

One rule of thumb a lot of people I know go by, is only add 1 or 2 fish, max, to a tank per every 2 weeks (especially a new one). There are several reasons for this.

One is, it lessens the drastic fluctuations on the stability of your tank's equilibrium, meaning: if you add a lot of fish at one time, the ammonia spikes and the bacteria must counter, and if the fish die in the spike, then finally as the bacteria catch up, they eventually die for lack of ammonia to eat!

Another reason for adding fish over a longer period of time, is that new additions to a tank can add stress on the previous tankmates. It's more subtle and easier on the fish to go up little by little.

And the 3rd and maybe most important reason to add fish sparingly, is that you can moniter your new purchase and make sure all is well and clear before you add him into your main aquarium. It's good to have a small hospital tank set up (5 or 10 gallon) for new additions to be monitered, or to treat sick fish in. That way you can be sure you don't bring anything from the store into your tank that you DON'T want. (BTW, I would NOT recommend adding chemical medication to your main aquarium, as it will just destroy your cycle in most cases).


Beyond that, I would say, your fish could definitely stand to be fed much, much less. I've learned from the experts on this forum that most fish keepers overfeed, especially in the beginning (I know I did, my fish are MUCH healthier now.) Remember, a fish's stomach is the size of its eye! I feed once every other day, and my fish are much more active, healthy, and living longer.

One other issue of stress... Your angel fish is probably not very large yet, but they grow to be 7 inches.. and can be considered semi-aggressive. Do any of your fish harrass the other fish? Tetras are also angel fish food in the wild, so I'd be careful of that situation when the angel is in adulthood, though I hear of a lot of people keeping them together. But if there are any "bullies" in your tank, it could potentially kill tankmates of stress.

Also, I'm not sure about the gravel cleanings, but I tend not to disturb my gravel as this is where the happy bacteria live. I do light gravel vaccuuming once every few days, some people do less.. but this is maybe a matter of what fish you keep.


This is all my opinion, and I am by no means an expert, but this is what I've learned from this forum. I hope some of it helps, and best of luck to you and your fish, I hope you get to the bottom of the problem!

 

[1canuck2]

Thanks for the reply!

I defintely think I was overfeeding, which may be part of my issue. I fed them twice a day and gave them as much as they could eat in 3 minutes.

Now I am down to once a day, 60 seconds worth.

This then meant I had to do more aggressive gravel cleanings, which would mess other things up and possibly add to the stress. Considering the random nature of the deaths, it doesn seem logicaol that it is stress related since the ones with less tolerance for stress would be first to go.

The water seems clearer on the last changing which is a good sign, and is probably reflected in my better nitrates. What colour is your water when you change typically? Mine was the colour of weak tea a couple of times, although in the tank it doesn't look dirty. The gravel cleanings were the main cause of the dirt level I would think since I guess a lot of uneaten food was sinking to the bottom.

There doesn't seem to be too much agression in the tank, esp from the angel (yet). The penguins and swords are probably the liveliest and they tend to be chasing each other rather than other species (I don;t see much actual nipping going on).

Hopefully things will settle down, then I can get a third rummynose and sword in there since both are down to two.

Anyrecomendations on a salt-tolerant algae eater?

 

[staredecisis]

Now I am down to once a day, 60 seconds worth.

That sounds much more appropriate in my guess. My fish could eat a horse in 3 minutes.

This then meant I had to do more aggressive gravel cleanings, which would mess other things up and possibly add to the stress.

Yeah too much food also makes your water cloudy and dirty, especially since you have to continually stir up the gravel to clean it. When I used to overfeed, my water was just lightly cloudy. Now it is absolutely crystal clear, and all of my gravel is very clean.

Anyrecomendations on a salt-tolerant algae eater?

Sorry, no clue on that. I keep cories, so no salt for me. You should make a new post in Tropical Chit Chat and ask that question.

Sounds like your tank is getting healthier, glad to hear it.

Take care!