My First Tank ..... And A Million Questions

[fulltilt]

Hi, I'd like to start with a disclaimer first : I didn't do a fishless cycle as described on this site My LFS doesn't recommend it and I couldn't find any pure ammonia anyway - even after checking in a LOT of different stores. I thought I'd take the advice of the LFS because I am going to have to face this guy for all my supplies and face to face questions for quite some time so I don't want to get him off-side straight away.

OK, now that's over, I posted here before that I had a 6' tank - that will take a while to get going (lids, proper location, etc) but I got a 4' very cheap that was pretty much ready to go, so here I go.

I spent a few hours setting it up tonight (I'm talking about the 4' here) and the water temp is great : 72F with no heater yet. Anyway, the LFS gave me a 'starter kit' to get the tank dosed properly (well, the way he thinks it should be done) consisting of 3 Sera bottles - toxivec, nitrivec & aqutan. But how/when do I add them ? This is what I've done so far :

- position the tank
- add gravel
- fill the tank
- setup the filter
- prime and start filter (AquaOne CF1000)
- add the proper amount of toxivec

I was going to add the others, but I couldn't find any clear documentation on which order or can they all be added immediately. The only thing I can find is that the Aqutan should come before the Nitrivec. Now I'm thinking I shouldn't have bothered with the Toxivec at all.

Please help, not urgent because I don't have any fish or plants yet, but I hope you can understand my reasoning for not cycling and help me with my problem.

Cheers

 

[PlecMama]

At the risk of getting lynched....we'd never heard of a cycle before we actually had fish, and we just got tanks, filled them with water and added fish.

Everyone is still alive and the tanks have been set up long enough now to be considered cycled, though I did just screw up my plec tank by over cleaning it. Whoops.

Happy tanking, hope you have years of fish fun.

 

[bogwood]

At the risk of getting lynched....we'd never heard of a cycle before we actually had fish, and we just got tanks, filled them with water and added fish.

Everyone is still alive

You're very lucky!


...and if you want real plants, I'd recommend a substrate additive... Laterite works well... and make sure your gravel is of a small enough size to help the plants bed in properly... and if you decide to go for Catfish/Corys, a layer of sand over the the top of the gravel/Laterite will make them happier - and protext their barbuls(?) from damage... it'll also minimise Laterite leakage...

 

[cashton]

For future reference, you don't need to use ammonia to do a fishless cycle. I have used the shrimp method with great success. Simply put a RAW shrimp in the tank and as it decomposes, it will produce ammonia thus creating bacteria eventially cycling your tank. I would place the shrimp in a container of some sort though with a lid with holes in it because it will keep the rotted shrimp from making a mess in your tank.

 

[rdd1952]

fulltilt, I doubt you will find a LFS that will mention or advocate a fishless cycle, especially if it's actually a LPS that just happens to sell fish. Most of them want to sell fish so if you buy some to cycle with fish and they die, they get to sell you more. And what if you wan't neons? You can't cycle with them as they are too delicate. Danios are good fish to cycle with but I don't particularly like them so why would I want to buy a fish that I don't want.

I guess I am one of the biggest supporters of fishless cycling. I've done it, seen how easy it is and just think it is the only way to go. Once you cycle with fish once and go through the daily water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite down and then do a fishless cycle with only one water change till you add your fish (all at once, not 3 or 4 every 2 to 3 weeks), you will probably feel the same way I do.

What are Toxivec, Aqutan and Nitrivec? Are those bacteria starters orwater conditioners? Personally, I would stay away from the bacteria in a bottle products. The general concensus is that they are useless. The don't necessarily slow the tank from cycling, they just don't speed it. Also, make sure that the water conditioner you are using does not say that it "removes ammonia" as some (AmQuel for one) do. If the product removes the ammonia, your tank will never cycle as the necessary bacteria will never form. Thus you will be dependent on that product forever.

The only problem I see with cycling with the dead shrimp is do you truely get a full cycle? How high does the ammonia get at it's highest point. How long does it stay there? How high does the nitrite get? How high are the nitrates when the nitrite spike finally ends? I just don't know if the tank would be fully cycled and ready for a full fish load in the end.

 

[fulltilt]

Hi rdd, I know your thoughts on cycling, but I thought you read the disclaimer

Anyway ...

What are Toxivec, Aqutan and Nitrivec?

That was my basic question, but you still answered well enough. I was basically trying to find someone who used these Sera products and could guide me, but according to the bottle :

Toxivec - removes pollutants immediately
Pollutant remover with immediate effect :

- removes ammonium and nitrite reliably
- removes chroline and chloramites reliably
- reduces the frequency of water changes
- offers a coating that protects mucous membrane from pollutants
- stabilises carbonate hardness and pH value
- binds heavy metals
- prevents high nitrate values


Aqutan - Water conditioner
Water conditioner with five effective features :

- creates clear water
- biologically protects the mucous membrane of fish
- binds heavy metals
- neutralizes chlorine and chloramine
- the ideal anti-stress agent for use in the aquarium and also when transporting


Nitrivec - Biostarter "breaks down ammonium and nitrite"
Shake well before use !

For new aquarium setups :
1. Condition the aquarium water with sera aqutan or sera aqumarin according to the directions for use
2. After 1 hour, and 20ml of sera nitrivec per 100litres of aquarium water.
3. Introduce the first fish into the aquarium water after 24 hours.
4. Add daily for 10 days, 10ml per 100 litres of water daily. Complete this treatment even if you do not detect nitrite from the seventh day.
5. Feed sparingly, only as much as the fish can eat within 2 minutes

Normal dosage : After every water change or filter cleaning, add 10ml of sera nitrivec per 100litres of water


I'm worried that if I start using these products, I will be dependent on them forever, but I can't use the other alternative at the moment.


One thing I forgot to mention last night, after a few hours of the tank being on there were hundreds of tiny air bubbles all over the inside. Now (12hrs later) there's not as many bubbles, but still a lot compared to the "nothing" I see in other tanks.

 

[cashton]

The only problem I see with cycling with the dead shrimp is do you truely get a full cycle? How high does the ammonia get at it's highest point. How long does it stay there? How high does the nitrite get? How high are the nitrates when the nitrite spike finally ends? I just don't know if the tank would be fully cycled and ready for a full fish load in the end.

Ammonia is ammonia no matter the source. The rotting shrimp produces ammonia same as adding liquid ammonia to the water causing the bacteria colonies to be produced. Depending on the tank size, two or more shrimp may have to be added. It is a very common practice in SW tanks and as sensitive as SW fish are, I dare say that the shrimp method is very reliable. Like I said, I have done it more than once with great success.

 

[rdd1952]

fulltilt, I did read your disclaimer and sorry if it sounded like I was scolding or raking you. I didn't do one with my first tank either (didn't know what it wasas I had not found this site yet). I went strictly but the booklet that came with the starter set I bought. Boy was that a mistake. Their stocking suggestion was way too heavy and way too fast. Fortunately I found this place and didn't put all the fish in.

First the bubbles. They are normal on a newly filled tank. The water will have millions of tiny air bubbles in it. You won't really see them until the start to join together. I believe cold water tends to have more than hot water but it may be the other way around. I still end up with some inside my tanks every time I do a water change with the python as it is made to create bubbles to remove chlorine (I don't trust that and use Stress Coat anyway). They're nothing to worry about.

It sounds like the toxivec is definitely something you want to stay away from. If it is removing ammonia and nitrite (shouldn't ever be much nitrite is the ammonia is being removed) then your tank will never cycle. When it says that it "prevents high nitrate values", it is doing that by removing the ammonia. No ammonia means no nitrite which means no nitrate.

The Aqutan sounds somewhat like a normal dechlorinator. I use Stress Coat (seems to be a very popular one) and they say it:

Instantly removes chlorine and chloramines
Neutralizes heavy metals
Replaces the natural slime coating
Helps heal torn fins and skin wounds
Contains Aloe Vera, nature's liquid bandage, to prevent the loss of essential electrolytes and protect damaged tissue against disease-causing organisms

Sounds similar but I'm concerned that Aqutan says it "neutralizes" chlorine and chloramine rather than removes them.

The Nitrivec sounds like another of the "bacteria in a bottle" products. I don't have much faith in any of them working unless they are constantly refrigerated. The general consensus of other similar products like Cycle, Stress Zyme and Prime (there are several more that I can't think of at the time) is that they don't work. Bio Spira is one that gets great reviews and apparently works but it has to be constantly refrigerated. I don't know if it is available in Australia or not. I think it's only in the US.

I just bought a 10 gallon tank to use for nothing more than testing some of these products. I plan to do 1 fishless cycle after another to see if they really speed the cycling process. I will be adding ammonia to the tank tomorrow morning to do a straight fishless cycle (no bacteria products) to set the standard time for this tank and filter. From there I will have something to judge the bacteria products by. To me if a regular fishless cycle with not bacteri products takes say 21 days and then I get the tank to cycle in 19 days with the bacteria products, I'd say that is still almost no help. If however it cycles in 14 days, then it is worth the money.

Sorry, I've rambled on. I got carried away. Good luck.

Ammonia is ammonia no matter the source. The rotting shrimp produces ammonia same as adding liquid ammonia to the water causing the bacteria colonies to be produced. Depending on the tank size, two or more shrimp may have to be added. It is a very common practice in SW tanks and as sensitive as SW fish are, I dare say that the shrimp method is very reliable. Like I said, I have done it more than once with great success.

I'm not saying it won't work. Actually, I am fascinated with fishless cycling methods and have just bought a 10 gallon tank to experiment with, mainly testing the "bacteria in a bottle" products to see if they really actually work. I will try your method also. I was just curious as to how high the ammonia and nitrite get and that sort of thing.

 

[fulltilt]

Don't worry rdd, I appreciate all your advice. I spoke to the LFS this morning (pure LFS) and he said to NOT add the fish when the Nitrivec says to (his words were they will probably die anyway), but do the full cycle for 10 days then add fish. I'm still trying to locate some ammonia so I can do things the proper way.

 

[rdd1952]

I don't think the Nitrivec will do any good without an ammonia source. If it is indeed bacteria in a bottle, they will die anyway once in the tank if they don't have an ammonia (food) source. On the other hand, if it's one of the useless bacteria in a bottle products, putting fish in at the start will put you to doing daily water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down. If you can find some ammonia and use it in conjunction with the Nitrivec, that first, would tell you if the product works or not and second, cycle your tank at the same time. If you do find ammonia in Australia, please post where you found it in this thread so others down under will know where to find it.

 

[fulltilt]

If you do find ammonia in Australia, please post where you found it in this thread so others down under will know where to find it.

I have found ONE place that actually understands what I mean when I say "pure ammonia", but they are very reserved about selling it (they use it as a raw material) and they did finally open up a bit when I answered all the questions properly

Cloudy ammonia in Sydney ? Easy, almost any supermarket.
Pure/proper ammonia in Sydney ? Retail ... it doesn't exist

I did read on another forum that cloudy ammonia can be used, but to do a test first to see how much surfactant is actually in it. The test was to pour a small amount of cloudy ammonia into a bottle, add water and shake. If the shaking produces bubbles, anything like soap bubbles or more bubbles than you would expect shaking clear water, then don't use it.

 

[rdd1952]

Actually, "pure ammonia" is a gas and an misnomer. I guess what we really mean is clear ammonia, with no detergents, surfactants and fragrances. It is probably about a 20 to 1 mixture of water and ammonia (some brands are more concentrated than others). Cheleating agents are ok. They are basically binders that keep the ammonia and water "mixed".

Usually, cloudy ammonia has detergents which are what make it cloudy. Grocery stores and hardware stores are the most likely place to find clear ammonia. You can actually test it right in the store. Shake it good. If you get foam, it won't work. If there are only some air bubbles that immediately go away (just like you would get if you shook a bottle of bottled water) then it is fine as long as it doesn't have a fragrance.

 

[OohFeeshy]

I find ammonia seems to be most common in the cheapest shops... Things like Cutprice, Poundstretcher (well, the Aussie versions) usually sell it in the cleaning section.

 

[fulltilt]

Well, the good news is that the cloudy ammonia I bought a week ago (and sat on the shelf and forgot about) is actually a bit clearer ... you can see the soap sediment on the bottom.

The other news (is this good ?) Is after the biostarter dose yesterday (Day 1 of dosing) the water readings are :

pH : 7.2
NO2 : 0
NH3 : 0.5

I still have to re-read the cycling instructions fully, again and again, but I might start the full proper cycle on my 6' tank just to compare

 

[rdd1952]

If you can see soap sediment in the ammonia, don't use it. If you shake it and it foams, it's not suitable for an aquarium. It will contaminate the water and make it unsafe for fish.