Molly Has Greenish Discoloration

[campbellmay]

I teach two-year-olds at a daycare center, and about a month ago I bought two female pot-belly mollies as class pets. To make a long story short, one of them died after the cleaning ladies unplugged my filter and left the hood light plugged in its place over the weekend (I put up a sign to make sure that doesn't happen again), and I ended up replacing it with two more female mollies (a dalmation and lyretail).

The surviving pot-belly was pearly-white when I got her, but somewhere between the death of her tankmate and the addition of new ones, the 'spines' on her dorsal fin have turned kind of black, and the top of her, from mouth to tail, has acquired a slight but odd greenish tinge. On top of that, the lyretail chewed a good bit of her tail off and the poor little thing just looks so pitiful. The only odd behavior I noted was some gasping at the surface of the water (she's the only fish that did so) and hiding nose-down inside one of the little rock caves. She is also the only of the three that has not given birth yet, though I've had her the longest, and she looks ready to burst (could be just because she's a pot-belly...).

She and the lyretail seem to have resolved their differences, and are peaceful enough that I no longer feel the need to seperate them. But the discoloration has not gone away, and it doesn't seem to be a symptom of any of the common diseases I've researched. I've had aquarium salt in there from the start, but is an antibiotic necessary for her damaged fin? Should I be concerned, or will she get better on her own? I'm a first-time fish mommy, so I can't help but be a worry wart. Thanks for any help you guys can offer!

Campbell

 

[nmonks]

Difficult to know precisely what's going on without pictures. Pot-belly mollies are, I assume, balloon mollies. Those are rather inbred forms that aren't especially hardy. Mollies, even at the best of times, aren't really fish for beginners. To try and narrow things down, a few questions:

• What is the temperature of the aquarium? Mollies like it warm, around 26-28 C.
• How much salt are you adding? While "aquarium salt" is better than nothing, what you really want is "marine salt" of the type used in marine aquaria. Aquarium salt is to fish what recycled air on aircraft is to us, adequate for survival, but hardly healthy or pleasant. Marine salt is the real deal. Either way, you want about 3 grammes of the stuff per litre. That's quite a lot, like a teaspoon per litre, and much more than many people imagine.
• What's the pH? Mollies like it alkaline, at least 7.5, ideally closer to 8.0.

As someone working with children, I'm sure you appreciate how much damage inappropriate use of antibiotics has caused in human healthcare. Things are no different with pets, and you don't want to use antibiotics unless you absolutely have to. The problem is almost certainly fungus, fin-rot, or both. Both of these can be cured without recourse to antibiotics. Mineral salts do the trick nicely (think of iodine on humans) and these come in simple to use preparations. The "interpet" brand has a dual formula that does fin-rot and fungus, and I'd suggest looking for that. Mixing different medicines isn't a great idea (any more than it is with humans) unless you have been told it is safe.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[campbellmay]

Lol, well, leave it to Petsmart to label their mollies as beginner-level fish. Ah, well. If it makes any difference, I've been doing lots of research and am doing all I can to keep them comfy and content.

I have a heater that keeps the temperature (it's non-adjustable) around 80F/27C, so it sounds like I'm okay there. I'll be sure to go pick up some marine salt today as well (I should let it dissolve before adding it to the tank, correct? I'm afraid they'll try to eat it...) I've been adding the amount suggested in the instructions on the box, but it sounds like that isn't enough.

As for pH, I test the water with strips once a week, (pH shows up as 'ideal') but they don't give me a numerical reading as to the levels...I'm assuming I should go ahead and invest in a full-fledged kit, eh?

And yes, I definitely understand about antibiotics, which is why I was hesitated to medicate her without advice. Thanks for setting me straight. Is mineral salt easy to come by, or do I need to order some?

I'll try to take some pictures today if I can. Thanks for all your help!

Campbell

 

[nmonks]

Lol, well, leave it to Petsmart to label their mollies as beginner-level fish.

Not just Petsmart. Most aquarium shops suggest that mollies are "easy", but thankfully some of the magazines are starting set people straight (TFH magazine, for example).

I'll be sure to go pick up some marine salt today as well (I should let it dissolve before adding it to the tank, correct?

Correct. Dissolve about 3-5 grammes of salt per litre in a bucket next time you do a water change. So if you bucket is 10 litres, add 10 x 3 grammes (or whatever). Stir well, let it sit for 20 minutes, and then do the water changes. Do this each week, and before you know it, you'll have a nice brackish water aquarium perfect for keeping mollies. Other livebearers, like guppies and platies, will thrive in this environment, too. Mollies, by the way, can be kept at anything up to seawater, which is 35 grammes of salt per litre. So what you are making is basically 10% seawater.

Is mineral salt easy to come by, or do I need to order some?

Yes. Just ask your local fish shop for fin-rot and fungus remedy. While they give these things fancy name, they're all based around two copper salts, known as methylene blue and malachite green. These are poisonous to most of the external parasites and bacteria that trouble fish, while doing minimal harm to fish. The only thing to do is [a] remove any carbon from the filter before using them and follow the instructions very carefully. Mention to the retailer that you are using the stuff in brackish (salty) water. Most medicines are fine in salty water, but some might not be.

An alternative would be to perform saltwater dips. You fill up a 1-litre pot with aquarium water and add 35 grammes of marine salt. Dissolve the salt. Then, get the sick fish into a net, and dunk her into the salt water for at least 10 minutes and ideally at least 20. So long as she is not "rolling over" she is fine, even if she looks a bit cross. Then put her back in the tank. Repeat this every day until the fin-rot and fungus goes away. This is an old method for fixing problems but surprisingly effective. It doesn't do anything about bacteria in the aquarium of course, but as a quick fix, first aid if you like, it works very well.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

erm not 100% sure about this but shouldn't you be careful adding marine salt if there's already aquarium salt in there, you don't wanna end up with too much salt. perhaps getting a refractometer to measure the salinity levels would be a good idea, or doing some decent size water changes before you add the marine salt so there's not a lot in the water to start off with.

An alternative would be to perform saltwater dips. You fill up a 1-litre pot with aquarium water and add 35 grammes of marine salt. Dissolve the salt. Then, get the sick fish into a net, and dunk her into the salt water for at least 10 minutes and ideally at least 20. So long as she is not "rolling over" she is fine, even if she looks a bit cross. Then put her back in the tank. Repeat this every day until the fin-rot and fungus goes away. This is an old method for fixing problems but surprisingly effective. It doesn't do anything about bacteria in the aquarium of course, but as a quick fix, first aid if you like, it works very well.

Cheers,

Neale

just otu of interest neale, I heard somewhere you can do the reverse fro SW fish, i.e. a FW bath and that will kill off marine parasites etc...... do you know if there's any truth in it?

 

[nmonks]

erm not 100% sure about this but shouldn't you be careful adding marine salt if there's already aquarium salt in there, you don't wanna end up with too much salt.

Correct, hence my advice to do add salt with each water change, so that the "aquarium salt" is replaced with the "marine salt". Adding salt to an aquarium directly, regardless of the circumstances, is a bad idea.

just otu of interest neale, I heard somewhere you can do the reverse fro SW fish, i.e. a FW bath and that will kill off marine parasites etc...... do you know if there's any truth in it?

Yes, lots of truth. The science is this: when you expose marine/freshwater organisms to freshwater/seawater they undergo osmotic shock. For a big animal like a fish, this will take longer to cause harm that a microscopic animal like a parasite. It's basically chemotherapy, which works (when it works) by killing off both cancer cells and healthy cells, but by focusing the radiation on the cancer cells the damage to the patient is minimised. I have found seawater dips work best on freshwater fish with high salt tolerance, like mollies and pufferfish. This year I managed to cure a mysterious slime disease that my red-tail puffers brought home with them by using 2 x 20 minute seawater dips. This was 6 months ago and they're fine now.

While seawater/freshwater dips are probably very distressing to the fish while being done, they recover almost at once, and there are no long term side effects. The same cannot be said for many copper-based medicines, which are belive to cause significant amounts of gill damage, and can be fatally toxic to some fish, notably puffers, moray eels, mormyrids, and some catfish.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[Miss Wiggle]

erm not 100% sure about this but shouldn't you be careful adding marine salt if there's already aquarium salt in there, you don't wanna end up with too much salt.

Correct, hence my advice to do add salt with each water change, so that the "aquarium salt" is replaced with the "marine salt". Adding salt to an aquarium directly, regardless of the circumstances, is a bad idea.

just otu of interest neale, I heard somewhere you can do the reverse fro SW fish, i.e. a FW bath and that will kill off marine parasites etc...... do you know if there's any truth in it?

Yes, lots of truth. The science is this: when you expose marine/freshwater organisms to freshwater/seawater they undergo osmotic shock. For a big animal like a fish, this will take longer to cause harm that a microscopic animal like a parasite. It's basically chemotherapy, which works (when it works) by killing off both cancer cells and healthy cells, but by focusing the radiation on the cancer cells the damage to the patient is minimised. I have found seawater dips work best on freshwater fish with high salt tolerance, like mollies and pufferfish. This year I managed to cure a mysterious slime disease that my red-tail puffers brought home with them by using 2 x 20 minute seawater dips. This was 6 months ago and they're fine now.

While seawater/freshwater dips are probably very distressing to the fish while being done, they recover almost at once, and there are no long term side effects. The same cannot be said for many copper-based medicines, which are belive to cause significant amounts of gill damage, and can be fatally toxic to some fish, notably puffers, moray eels, mormyrids, and some catfish.

Cheers,

Neale

ah yeah, you hadn't posted that bit when I first replied to it!

very interesting, I've never tried it to treat anyone using that method but I'd definately consider it reading that. Don't know what anyone else thinks but I reckon a pinned article about them in the emergencies section could be really useful.

Thanks Neale.

 

[campbellmay]

Okay. I changed about 30% of the water today and replaced it with marine-salted water (actually found a couple of fry hiding while I was at it). I watched her today, and she acted perfectly normal, so maybe whatever is wrong is resolving itself. I'll keep an eye on her, and if the green tinge doesn't go away, I'll try the mineral salt remedy next.

Thank you for all your help!

Campbell

 

[nmonks]

Cool. Sounds like you're doing what needs to be done. Keeping mollies in salty water is a revelation to most folks, and your mollies will really look so much better. I suspect you will need to treat that tank with something like Interpet No.8 Anti Fungus & Finrot or eSHa 2000 (a good value [treats lots of water] brand I happen to be consistently impressed with).

Cheers,

Neale

 

[campbellmay]

Okay. Unfortunately, I couldn't find either of the brands you mentioned at either of my local stores...do you know if they're sold in the US, or strictly in the UK? I bought an 8-tablet package of Trisulfa today, which according to the box contains sodium sulfathiazole, sodium sulfamethazine, and sodium sulfacetamide. It was the only salt-related thing I could find, and when I asked the fish guy at my local store he just kept trying to sell me Tetracycline. I thought I'd ask and make sure what I bought was okay before I used it. Thanks!

Campbell

 

[nmonks]

Tetracycline is an antibiotic. Unless your LFS guy is also a pharmacologist or an MD, any advice given about antibiotics is comparable to that given by me or anyone else lacking medical training. If you look at the National Institutes of Health pages for the drug, you'll see it isn't childs' play. I find it funny that retailers hand this stuff out like candy. They cannot in the UK; antibiotics are only available here with a medical/vet prescription.

http/www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginf...er/a682098.html

Anyway, Trisulfa is a sulphur drug, of the type used to treat bacteria before antibiotics were invented (and, sadly, coming back into use again because so many bacteria are antibiotic resistant). Apparently safe with biological filters, but I would suggest you measure your dose extremely carefully just to be sure. This is a broad action drug, and even if it doesn't kill the filter bacteria at the correct dose, I'm sure it will at a higher one.

http/puffernet.tripod.com/trisulfa.html

How's the molly looking, anyway? The salt should be helping.

Cheers,

Neale

 

[campbellmay]

Thanks for the information. I think I'll just stop asking the lfs guy, as he appears pretty clueless. I'm going to just stick with the original plan and let her be for a while. She's been acting and eating normally, and I don't see any changes in her damaged fin, though she does have a lot more trouble swimming, since the lack of tail makes it much harder to control her stubby little body. But hopefully she'll adapt. Will the fin regenerate?
Thanks again.

Campbell

 

[nmonks]

Yes, amazingly quickly, all else being equal. There are two issues here. One is the body damage; just like us, fish can regenerate a significant amount of their bodies. Fins are basically skin, and normally heal quickly. In the wild, lots of fish (and other animals) nip off bits of fin either as a meal in itself or in attempts to catch the fish to eat it. Thus, fish need to be able to regenerate their fins.

Secondary infection is the other infection. Bacteria and fungi are the culprits. Both are normally easy to treat. Look for something in the local fish shop labelled as "fin rot" or "fin damage" treatment. That's what you want. As I say, these are normally copper salts of one sort or another. But alternatives exist based on tea tree oils (Melafix and Pimafix) and these can work remarkably well, too. Salt dips are a third option.

Cheers,

Neale

Will the fin regenerate?

 

[campbellmay]

I walked into the classroom today and found her nose-down in the back of the tank, wiggling around but not moving much. When I nudged her, she swam away, but settled back on the bottom again. As the lyretail still seems to be giving her a hard time, I brought the balloon belly home and now have her in a tank on her own. The tank has only been cycling for a week, but I figured she was likely to die in the other tank, so it was worth a try. I'm keeping an eye on ammonia levels, and plan to do daily water changes.

She's still currently nose-down, but moving around quite a bit, and when some food floated down to her she eagerly ate. So I'm still holding out some hope. From what I can tell, she seems to have swim bladder, though I don't know how she might have gotten it. Is there anything else that might cause this behavior? The green discoloration seems, if anything, to have spread, though her tail looks about the same. I'm going to go ahead and buy the fin rot treatment, but should I also purchase something for her other symptoms?

I really appreciate all the help you've given me so far, and any more insight you can offer would be great.

 

[nmonks]

Swim bladder problems can be caused by a variety of things, of which constipation is one of the more common. The cure, if that's the case, is crushed frozen peas, which mollies should eat quite readily (esp. if hungry). Provided a fish is feeding, your chances are good that this fish will make a recovery.

As a general rule, don't mix medications. Cure one thing (the fin rot) and then worry about the next thing. Mixing medications sometimes causes problems. The Interpet brand of medications quite helpfully list what they are and are not safe when used alongside. But not all medications do this. Regardless, it's safest to use one medication, run the course (which may be 3 days, a week, or more) and then do a water change. Only then use the next medication, if required.

The problem with daily water changes if you're using a medication is that you will dilute the medication, which defeats the object of the exercise. So, I'd recommend holding off on the water changes. If you absolutely must do them, measure out how much water you throw away (say, 3 gallons) and then add additional medication to compensate (carefully reading the label so as not to overdose).

Cheers,

Neale