Marine Tank Beginner Questions

[ziggyboy]

I would like to try out a marine tank and have been reading up on it for a few weeks now and would like to get a tank with these dimensions: 36in x 16 x 16.

Based on the research I have done, there are a few questions I'd like to ask:

1. Is a sump needed? I read that the best filtration is using live rocks. Can't I put that in the main tank? What else is it used for aside from hiding all the equipment like heaters, etc?

2. Would I really need a protein skimmer? If so, what kind of noise do they produce? I live in a studio and I've made it a point that all my freshwater equipment was the most silent I could get.

3. What about calcium reactors? I've read that with enough water changes you can replenish calcium?

4. In relation to #3, how often do you do water changes on a marine tank? I think I've read somewhere that nitrates are absorbed by live rocks or living organisms. If this is true, am I right to assume that they do less water changes and because of this provide calcium using reactors?

5. For a 36x16x16 tank, would 200W suffice?

6. I've been looking at the locally available power compact lightings. They've got 50/50 combinations of 10K (something I'm familiar with in freshwater), 420nm, 450nm and 480nm. What sort of combinations do I get? What exactly are these nm ratings?

Thanks in advance!

 

[SkiFletch]

1- Sumps aid as you mention in hiding equipment, providinng extra water volume to aid in stability and dampen errors in chemistry, and provide a great place to do water changes and dose from. They're not essential, but damn are they convenient.

2- I would suggest a skimmer if you really want to delve into the world of sensitive corals, or if you want to really overstock your tank. They also really help combat phosphates to help counter nuisance algaes. Again, not essential, but with many benefits.

3- Calcium reactors are great for people who have tanks full of stony corals and high calcium and alkalinity demands. They're kinda complicated and not really something you start using from the very beginning without knowing your tank first.

4- Water changes to remove DOCs and trace toxins are still required though. I reccomend 20% every 2 weeks for medium sized reefs like the size you suggest.

5- A dual PC fixture on that tank will allow you to keep softies and LPS corals. Most SPS, clams, and nems are a no-go with that lighting.

6- I'd get a 10000k and a 420nm combo

 

[ziggyboy]

Thanks SkiFletch, that was really helpful.

I have a few more questions if you don't mind:

1. I've been reading articles warning me against using tap water. Do all of you use RO or distilled water???

2. I'm still confused about about cycling saltwater tanks. What are the steps to do this? Is it exactly the same as fw but with the live rock eating off the nitrates? Can I fishless cycle?

Thanks again!

 

[SkiFletch]

1- I only reccomend tapwater if it's going to be a Fish Only tank. No LR, no corals. While there are anecdotal successes using tapwater, its a risk I never reccomend that people take.

2- Basically, LR is like a cloned freshwater filter. You move it into your tank, and there may or may not be some dieoff on the rock. That dieoff will fuel a mini-cycle that usually lasts no longer than a week but often even shorter. One ammonia and nitrites are 0, the tank is cycled and you can consider adding cleanup crew and fish. The dieoff-fueled cycle may increase nitrates drastically, if so I usually reccomend a BIG water change, perhaps even near 100% just to remove the nitrates before you begin. Why start at a high level and try and struggle to get it low?

 

[STD]

IMO you are definitely better with RO

Yup you can do a fishless cycle - drop in a dead prawn

2- Basically, LR is like a cloned freshwater filter. You move it into your tank, and there may or may not be some dieoff on the rock. That dieoff will fuel a mini-cycle that usually lasts no longer than a week but often even shorter. One ammonia and nitrites are 0, the tank is cycled and you can consider adding cleanup crew and fish. The dieoff-fueled cycle may increase nitrates drastically, if so I usually reccomend a BIG water change, perhaps even near 100% just to remove the nitrates before you begin. Why start at a high level and try and struggle to get it low?

If you are using cured liverock you shouldn't get any dieoff

Test your nitrate level once its cycled - I don't think a large water change should be necessary

 

[ziggyboy]

Thanks guys. I know these questions are probably asked before but unlike fw issues I get conflicting info on marine setup questions like for instance:

1. Don't use a regular aquarium filter and use a sump instead because filters will cause high nitrate levels. <== Huh? If LR is just like a filter then what would stop bacteria from colonizing "normal" freshwater filter media?

2. Skimmers is just a fancy mechanical filter, you can use a hang-on filter with a sponge and wool instead. <== And some say this isn't true. So if I convert a hang-on filter to contain only wool and sponges for mechanical (no bio) filtration, would this suffice?

3. What's the real deal with the nitrate-eating bacteria? Is there a reason why they aren't present in fw setups? Do they just come naturally in reef aquariums?

4. I've seen talk about RO-only and RO/DI water. Do I need DI?

Thanks again! Man you guys are helpful... If you search online, fw setup pages are much more detailed than marine. If I really get into marine aquariums, I'll definitely write a guide for total beginners!

 

[SkiFletch]

If you are using cured liverock you shouldn't get any dieoff

And what happens when you live hours away from the LFS and/or order online and it spends significant time out of water? All the curing in the world won't matter then . The only way to truly know if you get a mini cycle is to try it and test the water

1- Mechanical filters trap detritus and provide an excellent media for it to decompose in. When detritus/waste decomposes, it goes through the nitrogen cycle, the end-product of which is nitrates. Therefore if the man-made filter is not cleaned religiously (something few aquarists have the patience for), it helps lead to the buildup of nitrates in the system longterm. LR on the other hand is full of beneficial organisms that can re-cycle this waste and even some that can process nitrate itself, hence being a better longterm filtration for a reef.

2- Wow, who gave you that advice? A protein skimmer is what's known in industrial water treatment circles as a foam fractionator. It removes hydrophobic complex molecules called dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) and proteins. If allowed to linger in the aquarium, these DOCs can break down into nitrate and more nefariously, phosphate which in-turn inhibit coral growth and increase algae blooms. The only substitute for the function of a protein skimmer would be constant massive water changes to remove the DOCs, no canister filter can perform the same function.

3- In just about all FW setups I know of, there are no anaerobic areas for the nitrate eating bacteria to live in... These bacteria can only survive for short periods of time when exposed to oxygen, and thus take refuge deep within the LR where they do their nitrate eating job. There are plenty of other organisms that consume nitrates on LR which people give little credit to. Calcerous algaes, macroalgaes, some sponges, small corals, and others will consume nitrate and may come as hitchhikers on your rock. Its more than just the anaerobes

4- It really depends on what your tapwater's TDS (todal dissolved solids) is. If its really high (say 350ppm or more) then you may want to consider a DI unit. Reason being, the RO membrane is not perfect and will let some solids pass it, in proportion to how many you put in it. Personally, my tapwater has a TDS of 100-120 depending on the day and my RO water has an output of 1ppm, close enough if you ask me . Furthermore, for MOST reef applications, especially those a beginner would be interested in and capable of, RO filtration is more than enough. Remember though, if/when purchasing an RO unit, make SURE it comes with a flush kit/valve. The ability to flush your membrane will GREATLY increase its life.

HTH

 

[ziggyboy]

3- In just about all FW setups I know of, there are no anaerobic areas for the nitrate eating bacteria to live in... These bacteria can only survive for short periods of time when exposed to oxygen, and thus take refuge deep within the LR where they do their nitrate eating job. There are plenty of other organisms that consume nitrates on LR which people give little credit to. Calcerous algaes, macroalgaes, some sponges, small corals, and others will consume nitrate and may come as hitchhikers on your rock. Its more than just the anaerobes

So are there any specific requirements for these bacteria to survive in a marine tank? I read putting 2 inches of sand. Would that be enough?

4- It really depends on what your tapwater's TDS (todal dissolved solids) is. If its really high (say 350ppm or more) then you may want to consider a DI unit. Reason being, the RO membrane is not perfect and will let some solids pass it, in proportion to how many you put in it. Personally, my tapwater has a TDS of 100-120 depending on the day and my RO water has an output of 1ppm, close enough if you ask me . Furthermore, for MOST reef applications, especially those a beginner would be interested in and capable of, RO filtration is more than enough. Remember though, if/when purchasing an RO unit, make SURE it comes with a flush kit/valve. The ability to flush your membrane will GREATLY increase its life.

How do I check for my TDS? Also, sorry for the dumb question but what is a membrane?

If you have the time, have a look at this RO unit for sale in eBay Australia and let me know if that would be ok: http/cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...ADME:B:AAQ:AU:1

Thanks again!

 

[SkiFletch]

The bacteria either live in the center of LR, or shouldy you try to provide an environment with sand, in a deep sand bed of at least 8" of depth, not a good idea for a display tank. People usually do remote deep sand beds in 5g buckets tapped off a sump system . I prefer a lighted refugium with macro algae for removing my nitrates though, much lower-maintenance IMO.

An RO filter is a membrane filter. Essentially water enters the center of the filter which looks a lot like a very tightly wound spiral wrap. That wrapping is a membrane with billions of TINY pores (like, micron diameter). These pores are just large enough to allow the small water molecule to pass through, but prevent ions, salts, heavy metals, bacteria, etc from passing through it. The pressure of the tapwater literally forces water molecules through the pores in the membrane material. About 1/4 of the water that enters actually passes through the membrane and comes out as pure water. The other 3/4 is "waste" water which is really the same thing as tapwater just with slightly higher minerals in it. The "waste" water can be used for washing clothes, watering plants, doing dishes, showering, and other uses should you want to use it.

That RO unit you linked to is very basic and IMO a little on the small size at only 35 GPD. I'd try and look for something in the 50-75g range for most midsized tanks, and up to 100GPD if you have a very big tank. Consider searching through camping supply stores, as RO membranes are often sold to people out in the wilderness since it removes bacteria/parasites from riverwater. Failing that, at the risk of throwing him under the "bus", might be worht PMing Mr Miagi or Fishlette as they're our resident aussies

 

[STD]

So are there any specific requirements for these bacteria to survive in a marine tank? I read putting 2 inches of sand. Would that be enough?

[How do I check for my TDS? Also, sorry for the dumb question but what is a membrane?

With sand the current thinking is either to go for about 1/2" or go for a Deep Sand Bed wich is at least 4"

Personally I'd go for about 1/2"

You measure TDS with a TDS meter - many RO units come with them

And what happens when you live hours away from the LFS and/or order online and it spends significant time out of water? All the curing in the world won't matter then . The only way to truly know if you get a mini cycle is to try it and test the water

I agree and that is what I suggested in my previous post